Question about King tuba

[Rick Denney]

If the King 2341 and the Conn 5xJ horns are made with some of the same parts and in the same factory and, with the exception of the 5th valve, are similar except for key, why do the 5xJ series cost $4-5 K more?

The cost is not the independent variable. The market is the independent variable, and the allowable cost is based on that.

CC tuba player are willing to pay more than BBb tuba players. CC tuba buyers are usually colleges, college kids and pros or pro wannabes. BBb tuba buyers are usually high schools, high-school kids or their parents, and adult amateurs. There are plenty of exceptions, of course.

In general, college and professional players see the purchase of an instrument as a tool for their livelihood and they are prepared to spent what it takes. High-school and adult amateurs have to balance that expense with other expenses, though in some cases they can spend as much as anybody.

So, the folks at (then) UMI thought, how can we modify the 2341 to be as popular for the BBb market as the 52J has been in the CC market? They look and see good BBb tubas (such as the VMI 2301 and 3301, among many others) being offered in the $4K neighborhood, and they realize they have to sell a BBb tuba at that price to get any volume at all.

So, they do what they have to do to reduce costs such that the 2341 is cheap enough to sell at that price point. That's why the fit and finish are not nearly as good--they just don't take those finishing steps like they do with the 5xJ. That's also why it doesn't have a fifth valve. BBb players aren't willing to pay for it.

Of the ~$3000 difference in price, a third of that is the fifth valve. I'll be the $2000 remaining difference only pays for about a dozen additional hours of labor from their best workers to provide that finish work. They can have higher costs because the CC buyers will pay a higher price. But they will expect higher finish quality for that higher price.

Stated another way: There isn't much market for cheaply made CC tubas, but the bulk of the BBb market is price-driven.

Rick "thinking price drives cost not the other way around" Denney

[The Big Ben]

If the King 2341 and the Conn 5xJ horns are made with some of the same parts and in the same factory and, with the exception of the 5th valve, are similar except for key, why do the 5xJ series cost $4-5 K more?

The cost is not the independent variable. The market is the independent variable, and the allowable cost is based on that.

CC tuba player are willing to pay more than BBb tuba players. CC tuba buyers are usually colleges, college kids and pros or pro wannabes. BBb tuba buyers are usually high schools, high-school kids or their parents, and adult amateurs. There are plenty of exceptions, of course.

In general, college and professional players see the purchase of an instrument as a tool for their livelihood and they are prepared to spent what it takes. High-school and adult amateurs have to balance that expense with other expenses, though in some cases they can spend as much as anybody.

So, the folks at (then) UMI thought, how can we modify the 2341 to be as popular for the BBb market as the 52J has been in the CC market? They look and see good BBb tubas (such as the VMI 2301 and 3301, among many others) being offered in the $4K neighborhood, and they realize they have to sell a BBb tuba at that price to get any volume at all.

So, they do what they have to do to reduce costs such that the 2341 is cheap enough to sell at that price point. That's why the fit and finish are not nearly as good--they just don't take those finishing steps like they do with the 5xJ. That's also why it doesn't have a fifth valve. BBb players aren't willing to pay for it.

Of the ~$3000 difference in price, a third of that is the fifth valve. I'll be the $2000 remaining difference only pays for about a dozen additional hours of labor from their best workers to provide that finish work. They can have higher costs because the CC buyers will pay a higher price. But they will expect higher finish quality for that higher price.

Stated another way: There isn't much market for cheaply made CC tubas, but the bulk of the BBb market is price-driven.

Rick "thinking price drives cost not the other way around" Denney

I'll grant you all of your points and they are well taken. I'm not privy to the actual costs of labor between the King and the Conn horns. The extra cost of the 5th is an obvious factor.

I don't have a comprehensive list of other manufacturers prices and which BBb horn is equal to which CC horn but do notice in the WWBW catalog, the 4v BBb Miraphone 186 is the same price as the 4v CC 186. Apples and oranges?

(There was a discussion here a month or so ago and in the Old TubeNet archives regarding the 5th valve on the 5XJ Conns. Fair amount of controversy regarding the value and efficacy of said valve. Some say the horn is better with a brass tube professionally inserted in lieu of the 5th valve. Search the archives if you are interested.)

[Rick Denney]

I don't have a comprehensive list of other manufacturers prices and which BBb horn is equal to which CC horn but do notice in the WWBW catalog, the 4v BBb Miraphone 186 is the same price as the 4v CC 186. Apples and oranges?

No, that is a good example that demonstrates the point.

Would you agree that most Bb tuba players think of the Miraphone 186 as a high-end instrument, usually above their budget?

And would you agree that most C tuba players think of the Miraphone 186 as an instrument they might regret buying, despite its low cost, because they will outgrow it or because they don't think it can compete on the audition circuit?

The Bb 186 is an expensive option, while the C 186 is considered to be a bargain. Yet they are the same price.

The Rudolf Meinl Bb tubas are as expensive as their C tubas, but they are mostly marketed to pros in Germany who use Bb tubas. They are consequently quite rare on this side of the pond. The C tuba are much more common because their price fits the market.

I know for a fact that Conn-Selmer controlled costs of the 2341 by limiting the finish work for the specific reason of keeping the price down in the school purchase range.

Rick "veteran of many, many marketing meetings whose sole purpose was to gauge the market's willingness to pay" Denney

[The Big Ben]

I don't have a comprehensive list of other manufacturers prices and which BBb horn is equal to which CC horn but do notice in the WWBW catalog, the 4v BBb Miraphone 186 is the same price as the 4v CC 186. Apples and oranges?

No, that is a good example that demonstrates the point.

Would you agree that most Bb tuba players think of the Miraphone 186 as a high-end instrument, usually above their budget?

And would you agree that most C tuba players think of the Miraphone 186 as an instrument they might regret buying, despite its low cost, because they will outgrow it or because they don't think it can compete on the audition circuit?

The Bb 186 is an expensive option, while the C 186 is considered to be a bargain. Yet they are the same price.

Someone else will have to comment on the relative worth of BBb vs. CC 186s. From what I have read, both are considered 'no-brainer' horns. Perhaps not the best in their respective markets but 'they are all good' or 'the horn won't hurt you' sort of choice. BBb 186s are also popular in the school market because of their 'brick outhouse' construction. If a school can manage to gather the scratch for a Miraphone, they will have it many more years than a lesser quality horn. I'm basically a BBb player and $5.8 K is way out of my budget to start with. I don't need the long term reliability of a new Miraphone and would do well with many of the lower priced but still fine enough horns. I would consider buying a $3-3.5K used 186 in premo condition over new horn of a similar price but I'm a guy who doesn't have a problem with stuff someone else has used first.

Would a well-schooled, tuned-eared, metronomed-tempoed, fully prepared person who walked into an audition with a 186 CC have a harder time of it than a person with a higher prestige horn? Someone who judges auditions will have to answer that.

I guess I'm kind of agreeing with you, aren't I?

The Rudolf Meinl Bb tubas are as expensive as their C tubas, but they are mostly marketed to pros in Germany who use Bb tubas. They are consequently quite rare on this side of the pond. The C tuba are much more common because their price fits the market.

I know for a fact that Conn-Selmer controlled costs of the 2341 by limiting the finish work for the specific reason of keeping the price down in the school purchase range.

The retail price seems to be climbing on the 2341. I wouldn't be too pleased to have to invest $500 more into a 'new' $4500-5000 horn to have it play right and then perhaps have necessary repair mars on the finish of this 'new' horn. With those kinds of costs, may as well get a Miraphone for a little more and have it good to go...(Then, it's the German vs.. American sound and the pistons vs. rotors again... And so it goes..) Or, if I have to have something that isn't perfect, get a used horn and pay a used price.

Jeff "Kinda talked to death on this" Benedict

[iiipopes]

If memory doesn't fail me totally, the one given, non-changeable, factor in the design of the Conn 5XJ series was the mandatory use of the bottom bow from the old King 2341.

The bore expansion through the pistons of the Conn 5XJ series and through the pistons of the current King 2341 is the exact same: there is no expansion. All pistons have the bore of 0.687".

The 4th valve loop of the Conn 5XJ series has it bore expanded after the piston, but the bore is shrunk back before the re-entry into the piston.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

Sorry, Klaus, but one nit if I may, as I have played both a 52J and a 56J -- from the CG Conn Website:

"Features: CC, 5 valve, graduated bore: .687" (17.46mm) primary bore, .734" (18.65mm) 4th valve, .750" (19.05mm) flat wholestep fifth rotor valve, top access to all pull slides. 18" (451mm) bell, bright lacquer finish. Deluxe hardshell case or carrying bag available."

[Rick Denney]

The retail price seems to be climbing on the 2341. I wouldn't be too pleased to have to invest $500 more into a 'new' $4500-5000 horn to have it play right and then perhaps have necessary repair mars on the finish of this 'new' horn.

You wouldn't have to pay extra if you bought it from a good shop. One section mate who bought one sent the first one back because of construction issues. The store ordered in a replacement, which was fine, and he didn't have to pay any extra. Any good shop will do the fine adjustments before selling it, including things like checking valve alignment, fixing leaks on water-key corks, checking for shipping damage, doing basic slide alignment, and so on. From what I hear, Kings that require more than about an hour of that sort of thing get sent back to the factory or sold as B-stock.

Cosmetic finish details are another matter. But I daresay acid bleeds, poor joints, solder blobs, and other defects are not the exclusive domain of Conn-Selmer.

On the Bb vs. C Miraphone thing, I don't think any serious contender for an orchestra gig would audition using a 186. That sound is not the flavor of the month, and the instrument is too small to create the preferred sound for some works. I know folks who have spent decades honing high skill levels on 186's, and have still found them wanting a bit when they needed to move earth in a large ensemble. Yes, it's a great general-purpose instrument and a no-brainer. But the resistance we see from college kids who come here and get advice to just get a 186 is a testament to their perception of it, and perception is what rules the market.

Another view of the same example: If I show up to a community band with a Bb 186, the other players will comment positively. If I showed up to a professional orchestral audition with a C 186, the reaction would be closer to a sneer. If I won the audition, people would think I'd done so in spite of my instrument. I'm not saying it's right, of course. I like 186's and I own one. But then I'm a Bb player, heh, heh. I suspect the main problem with the C 186 is that it isn't posh enough--even most folks who make money playing tuba don't need an instrument optimized for big orchestral use.

Rick "who doesn't use the Miraphone much but who can't bear to sell it" Denney