Why not start on CC?

[The Big Ben]

Let me clarify. In no way do I think it's wise to start tuba players on CC. I think it would be wrong to deprive them of learning CC.

In creating my post in a restaurant and having a delicious pork BBQ dinner in front of me, I hastily jotted down my own personal experience and stopped without explaining further.

If a HS like Wade mentioned could afford $50K for a set of CCs, I would think that they would want to keep at least one of them around (and maybe an F) for a motivated kid who wanted to give it a go. I would think that even programs that aren't as well funded as the one Wade mentioned could afford a used CC and/or a used F as a motivational tool for an advanced student.

"So, you think you're pretty hot, huh? Well, you are playing a solo at the concert in six months and this is the horn you're gonna do it with. It fits the literature better than the BBb and it's what a pro would use. Get practicing."

[windshieldbug]

More anecdotal information.

I began on cornet/trumpet. Doing so, I needed to learn Bb transposition for C music, especially doing things like reading fake books over the keyboard player's shoulder.

Fast forward a few years until my instrument had sunk to the level of REAL instruments. I started playing an Eb in my college's marching band, because I already had acquired one in my collector, and the band needed more bass on the field. I simply read the bass clef music as the treble I knew, with the appropriate accidentals. Got to love the tuba, re-auditioned, and became a tuba major. Learned bass clef while learning the notes on my first real TUBA, a 184 CC.

Once you learn CC, BBb is just like reading C music and transposing. F/Eb, CC/BBb: step up, step down. Like playing piano, the younger you learn it, the easier it is.

[TMurphy]

It is just more effort than its worth for most band directors, for the reasons already stated. Speaking as someone about to start a career as a music teacher next month (mid-year opening, I am quite lucky), I would be surprised if more than 2 of my students go on to play the tuba in college and beyond, in my whole career. I would not be surprised if it was less than that. The "benefit" of starting a student on CC would affect such a small minority of students, there is no real reason for it, other than "CC is better" tuba snobbery, and I don't drink that kool-aid.

Then there's the sousaphone thing. A lot of kids have a hard enough time keeping one set of fingerings straight. If most kids had to learn a new set of fingerings for marching band, they'd find a real easy solution to that: quit marching band, or quit music altogether. Anything like this that will drive students away from your program is a bad idea.

[Allen]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the ideal compromise instrument: the B-natural tuba. They are quite inexpensive on e-Bay, which makes it easy to avoid all of this BBb/CC argument stuff.

Next to come: the E-natural tuba, for those who have trouble deciding between an Eb or an F bass tuba.

Cheers,
Allen
who claims to think there should be tubas in twelve keys

[windshieldbug]

Allen
who claims to think there should be tubas in twelve keys

There are already tubas in C,Bb,G,F,Eb,D,CC,BBb,EEEb,BBBb.
With High and Low pitch, and 5 and 6 valve horns, you're not far off...

[adam0408]

....
Cheers,
Allen
who claims to think there should be tubas in twelve keys

Yes, like harmonicas! And then we can have a chromatic tuba that is eight times as big as the other ones.

Why not start kids on CC? Just simply because it isn't done. I think that is the real reason. BBb is what EVERYONE is used to and has easy access to in a beginning band situation.

The way I see it, the following issues have nothing to do with the decision:

Tuning:

If a kid plays out of tune on a BBb instrument, he will play out of tune on a CC. Tuning is definitely an ear issue and not an instrument issue. Tuning to a first valve Bb is not a big deal, since the first valve slide typically blows pretty similarly to open, and the kid isn't going to move any slides anyway. If you tune to the tuba, it won't make any difference since the tuba sets the standard. No one will be in tune in the end, because its beginning band.

Fingering Troubles:

I am convinced that the only reason we think some keys are harder (or easier) on CC is because we have been conditioned to think that way. B natural is a difficult key because we don't play in it. I find it equally difficult on CC, BBb and F. It doesn't matter!

You can train your fingers to do almost anything you want. Fingering a tuba is not the most strenuous exercise in the world, and the most awkward fingering combinations become pretty darn easy with enough repetition.[/b]

[J.c. Sherman]

1) All keys are equally hard, but some are less practiced. Want proof? Play the third movement of Ewald 4 (Fb Major).

2) I think the definition given earlier for professional tubist is a bit too narrow. Some get a lot of work, but must suplement with a "day job". I don't think that makes 'em less a pro.

3) I think the G and D tubas are only one-shot deals from Bobo's old arsenal. Anyone ever run accross another example? However, there is GGG (corp bugles).

J.c.S. (who'd love a D tuba for D horn concerti!)

[lgb&dtuba]

Obviously what we need are tubas in each of the possible keys and the music transposed. Only one set of fingerings to be learned and all keys played the same. Just pick up the appropriately keyed tuba. Should help with intonation as well.

We'd finally have more equipment on stage than the percussionists. Bwaaa Haa Haa.

Gee, what kind of vehicle would I need to carry around 12 tubas?

[windshieldbug]

Gee, what kind of vehicle would I need to carry around 12 tubas?

Just like a drummer - his girlfriend's!

[The Big Ben]

I think it has been proven to start on BBb....and what decade was this lake highlands did that with the 12 CC tubas, I have friends from that school and know a current director, and they now play on BBbs.

If a student wishes to learn a CC to be a music major as I did, then it should be an expectation of a class, since they want to pursue a good carreer in this field.

However, making everyone learn 2 different fingering systems in highschool is not the brightest move as mentioned with Lake Highlands, but could be done with serious players wanting to seek a carreer in music

Agreed. Like I said, I think high schools with big bands and budgets should have a CC and/or F for an advanced student to use as a challenge. A used one would do.

Kinda too bad those 186 CCs with the BBb slides didn't work too well. Two or three of those in a school's arsenal would make a lot of this arguement moot.

[Rick Denney]

Agreed. Like I said, I think high schools with big bands and budgets should have a CC and/or F for an advanced student to use as a challenge. A used one would do.

I note your adjective "big".

I grew up in Houston, in a high school that would now be rated as a 5A. We had 75 members in our band, with no second band other than a stage (jazz) band. And the overlap between stage and concert band was about 100%, except for the guitar player.

Our tuba arsenal comprised one King fiberglass sousaphone, two no-name fiberglass sousaphones, a thoroughly deceased (or so we though) brass sousaphone, and a Besson Stratford upright tuba. The band director couldn't get the funding to replace the Besson, and repairing it was out of the question, so he had it declared junk and threw it in the dumpster. (I provided the dumpster.)

For many years, Ray taught at a downtown high school in San Antonio--also a 5A school. He'll correct my fuzzy memory, but I think they had four Miraphones and some sousas--certainly not enough to justify a special instrument.

The point is that even in Texas with its vaunted reputation for enormous band programs, not all schools fall into the gigantic category. Some of those high schools in Texas have 5000 or 6000 kids--these programs are waaaay out on the tail of the distribution. Even in Texas, most programs are a lot smaller.

Then I moved to Virginia. I live in one of the wealthiest counties in the country, with a median income pushing six figures, and the local school where my band rehearses has about half a dozen sousas (a mix of old brass Kings and newer Yamahas), and a handful of Yamaha 321's. The 321 is the standard school instrument around here.

Big high schools are not the norm in most places.

The good students around here play tubas provided by their parents. One of them (who is now a band director here and who was always a very fine tuba player) played a Hirsbrunner in high school, bought in poor condition and resurrected by his parents. He went on to study music and tuba in college, of course.

Another kid who played in our band for a while is also now studying tuba in college. He bought a G50 in his senior year with help from his parents.

Both of these guys showed significant musical talent right from the start, and they both worked very hard to develop those talents.

My second point? Kids with the desire to expand their horizons will invariably find a way to do so. It may be fishing a Besson Stratford out of a dumpster if money is tight, or it may be proving to their parents that they are worth an investment in a pro-grade instrument. Learning the fingerings is just a non-issue. Kids with that sort of talent just do it and never look back. The other kids don't need to.

Rick "thinking the high school is being helpful enough providing basically competent and durable Bb instruments" Denney

[The Big Ben]

Agreed. Like I said, I think high schools with big bands and budgets should have a CC and/or F for an advanced student to use as a challenge. A used one would do.

I note your adjective "big".

<cut>

Rick "thinking the high school is being helpful enough providing basically competent and durable Bb instruments" Denney

Again, I don't have an argument with you. If they don't have the money for extras, they shouldn't get a specialty tuba. If they do have the money, wouldn't be a bad idea. Maybe their parents should buy them one if they are talented. We could go around and around like that forever.

I teach photography at a 300 student high school. They give me 30 kids and enough equipment to teach 15. It sucks. I get by... I do have a Hasselblad and some accessories in the equipment cabinet as well as some 4x5 stuff. I didn't buy this stuff. It was donated for a tax writeoff. (With the digital revolution, I get a lot of donated 35mm gear.) I had thought of selling the Hassy and buying some other gear for all of the kids to use but I am keeping it for the inspired student. In the two years I have had it, I've taken it out of the cabinet and had a kid use it on only two occasions. Those kids, supervised by me, were energized by that kind of gear and it really sparked their interest. I'm going to try and take it out more... Keep it or sell it? I don't know.... I do know that I would have been out of line if I had bought it, all things considered...

So... CC or not CC, that is the question...

[Rick Denney]

I teach photography at a 300 student high school. They give me 30 kids and enough equipment to teach 15. It sucks. I get by... I do have a Hasselblad and some accessories in the equipment cabinet as well as some 4x5 stuff. I didn't buy this stuff. It was donated for a tax writeoff. (With the digital revolution, I get a lot of donated 35mm gear.) I had thought of selling the Hassy and buying some other gear for all of the kids to use but I am keeping it for the inspired student. In the two years I have had it, I've taken it out of the cabinet and had a kid use it on only two occasions. Those kids, supervised by me, were energized by that kind of gear and it really sparked their interest. I'm going to try and take it out more... Keep it or sell it? I don't know.... I do know that I would have been out of line if I had bought it, all things considered...

You make a good argument and one dear to me. When I was in architecture school (before becoming an engineer), I was taking a course on visual presentation. The school had an old Linhof view camera that I could borrow, and I took huge advantage of that opportunity. I expect I was the first to use that camera in 10 years. I'm sure there was a prof back in the day who was into cameras, and got them to buy it, or maybe it was donated. It did start me down a path that I might have missed without it.

We should get together and compare photography notes someday.

Rick "agreeing that the big challenge is the care and feeding of the best students" Denney

[TubaRay]

Rick "agreeing that the big challenge is the care and feeding of the best students" Denney

I believe this is one challenge we don't address often enough, nor sufficiently. We spend a disproportionate amount of our time and money on students who are either unable or unwilling to produce much, if anything.

Just my opinion. Those with flamethrowers are welcome to begin flaming.

[windshieldbug]

Rick "agreeing that the big challenge is the care and feeding of the best students" Denney

I believe this is one challenge we don't address often enough, nor sufficiently. We spend a disproportionate amount of our time and money on students who are either unable or unwilling to produce much, if anything.

"No Child Left Behind" means also, "No Child Allowed Very Far Ahead"...

[TubaRay]

"No Child Left Behind" means also, "No Child Allowed Very Far Ahead"...

You could be right, but it doesn't have to mean this.

[iiipopes]

"No Child Left Behind" means also, "No Child Allowed Very Far Ahead"...

My son, thankfully, qualified for the gifted program at school. In spite of that, I can vouch personally for the truth of that statement!

[pigman]

Take Rodger Bobos advice

Eb to start

[LoyalTubist]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the ideal compromise instrument: the B-natural tuba. They are quite inexpensive on e-Bay, which makes it easy to avoid all of this BBb/CC argument stuff.

Next to come: the E-natural tuba, for those who have trouble deciding between an Eb or an F bass tuba.

Cheers,
Allen
who claims to think there should be tubas in twelve keys

And have twelve different fingerings? NO WAY!

So why do trumpet players, who also have various keyed instruments (Eb, C, D, F, G) always start with a Bb instrument?

Let's not get too complicated here. Most of the world plays BBb tubas. And that's the reason...

(I don't have a BBb tuba at this time.. I have a CC, an Eb, and an F. And I started on an Eb tuba, just like Roger Bobo suggested.)

[MaryAnn]

Tubaray wrote:

I believe this is one challenge we don't address often enough, nor sufficiently. We spend a disproportionate amount of our time and money on students who are either unable or unwilling to produce much, if anything.

In an interesting parallel, this same incorrect focus is often found in the workplace; the supervisor spends the vast majority of his/her time on the 1-2% of employees who are not producing up to snuff, and ignores those who are producing. This leads to a lot of problems, in that consciously or unconsciously the productive employees learn that the way to get attention is to cease being productive. Part of management training where I work is a course that presents this concept and recommends a change in focus towards those who are productive, to encourage and reward them, and to just let the non-productive ones go.

MA