What to do with a "clunker" Eb sousaphone?

[Jack Denniston]

I'd appreciate your thoughts on what to do with a clunker York Eb sousaphone. I bought it as a fixer-upper, hoping that it could be brought to life, but despite the best efforts of a top notch tuba technician, it still clunks. By that, I mean it has some very dead notes, most of the notes don't center very well, and it definitely doesn't sing. The C and Bb below the staff are particularly stuffy.

So now I'm trying to figure out what to do with it. Of course I'd like to get back the $500 I have invested in it, but it is even more important to me that I don't just pass this horn on to some innocent unsuspecting person. I don't want it to become someone else's problem and disappointment.

Can anyone think of any good use for this instrument, other than hanging it on the wall as a decoration in some BBQ/beer joint?

Thanks,

Jack

[Carroll]

can you tell us the brand and model?

I can use my psychic ability to guess the brand...

I'd appreciate your thoughts on what to do with a clunker York Eb sousaphone.

[Tubaing]

How about cutting it down to F and add a valve or 2 like people do with the rest of the York Eb's.

[Dean E]

I'd appreciate your thoughts on what to do with a clunker York Eb sousaphone. . . . .

What is the serial number or approximate year manufactured? I ask because recent (1950 or so) Yorks have been compared to student horns, with valves that wear out. I have such a BBb sousaphone that is no fun to play. The course of action would depend on which model you have.

[KevinMadden]

How about cutting it down to F and add a valve or 2 like people do with the rest of the York Eb's.

Blasphemy!

Kevin "Loves his York Eb even as an Eb!" Madden

[imperialbari]

Maybe the Eb sousaphones of certain eras were not intended for anything but playing the octave on top of the contrabass sousaphones.

We also have seen a change in playing styles over the last century. The monster Eb tubas had huge branches and bells, but their valve bore often was modest, and their original mouthpieces were small with narrow shanks.

As a then mostly bassboner I bought a 1928 Conn 26K Eb sousaphone to do my morning low range and flexibility warm-ups.

The sequence of 5 mouthpieces ran from a Bach 1G bassbone to a DW 1L with improvements. Still the low range was less open than desired and the range from the 10th partial and up was flat. Then the PT-50 entered the stage and solved these problems (the pistons are an ugly sight, but they are tight and run well).

You may try out, whether a thick oil on the valves improves the quality of sound and response. If so, then a valve rebuild would be the answer.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[Dan Schultz]

I'd appreciate your thoughts on what to do with a clunker York Eb sousaphone. ...... The C and Bb below the staff are particularly stuffy.

I think some of the other posters have already hinted to the real answer to your question. Eb tubas (and sousas) were never intended to play real well below that C you mention. Adding extra plumbing does little for the problem since the additional tubing is just straight-bore tubing. If you want to play in the 'basement' get a BBb souzie.

[Donn]

Now to my personal experience. I have a 3-valved EEb helicon and it's certainly stuffy in the range that you've suggested. There's no way it'll ever play down where I'd like for it to unless I shell out a lot of cash and ever so kindly beg and plead with Bloke to add more valves to it. And since intonation in the mid range is hit and miss to begin with, there's really not much point in me spending the cash to have this done in my opinion.

Right, and even at that, I suspect you would be disappointed in the results. I guess it depends on what how you're tuning the valves, though. I tune mine like a 3 valve setup: tune 3 on the flat side so it plays combinations in tune. On my Eb with a 4th valve, I tune it flat for the same reason, so I can reach Ab and lower.

For folks like me, a 4th valve won't have much to do with whether low Bb is stuffy, because we won't use it on that note even if we have it, but in any case in my experience it sounds about the same as 1-3. On the other hand, if you tune a 3 valve Eb so --3 plays C in tune, then 1-3 will want to play sharp and is naturally not going to be at its best when forced down to pitch. A 4th valve will help in this case, of course - at least it will shift the problem down to Ab.

Incidentally my 4 valve Eb is a helicon, and it does happen to play Bb OK. It's a Czech instrument with a relatively large bore, which I suppose helps.

[iiipopes]

I disagree with the characterization of a souzy as "fluffy." With a bowl mouthpiece, an HN White King has as much definition and projection as you can stand. On a 14K, a Conn Helleberg will make it almost tubesque in breadth, but never lose definition.

I respectfully submit any "fluffiness" is a player issue, not an instrument issue.

[J.c. Sherman]

I will 1/2 echo a previous comment on King Eb sousas. The earlier monsters are dogs, IMHO. But the later ones which had the complete wrap around the body are awesome. I'm still kicking myself for getting rid of mine. The only "bad" note was the F on the staff, which cleared up completely with 1&3.

I think I heard that Bell recorded all or part of his "Bill Bell and his Tuba" album on one of these sousas.

As for York Ebs... Haven't tried the sousas, but their reagular instruments and monsters are astounding! I would suspect an earlier York sousa should be better than what is being described, but I can only guess at that...

J.c.S.

[TubaingAgain]

A "Modern Art Masterpiece" plant holder???

[Jack Denniston]

Thanks to everyone for your responses to my question about the clunky York Eb sousaphone.

In response to the questions you asked-

Regarding serial number and age- on the bell it says York Artist and on the 2nd valve casing is the number 603256. I think the fellow who sold it to me thought it was around 50 years old, and the finish certainly looks that old, although it is in very good shape otherwise- no major dents, the slides all move, the valves work fine.

Regarding mouthpieces- I had tried a Conn 18 and a ME1, with the results that I described in my original post. I just tried a MF-4, with maybe slightly better results.

[Dan Schultz]

Regarding serial number and age- on the bell it says York Artist and on the 2nd valve casing is the number 603256. I think the fellow who sold it to me thought it was around 50 years old....... Regarding mouthpieces- I had tried a Conn 18 and a ME1, with the results that I described in my original post. I just tried a MF-4, with maybe slightly better results.

It's a little older than that. Probably somewhere in the range of 1918 and 1921 depending on how one interpolates the serial number lists. Try using a little smaller MP... maybe something on the order of a Bach 24AW, 22, or 25. Make sure you don't have any leaks. If the valves are 'shaky', try using a heavy oil to improve compression.

[iiipopes]

Indeed what Dan said. Worn or otherwise leaky valves will cause "fluff." When I need thick valve oil, I take plain ordinary valve oil -- no synthetics, just traditional petroleum based valve oil, like Al Cass, Roche-Thomas (my preference for decades), etc., and to a 1-oz bottle I keep and refill from my larger bottle, I add a couple of drops of pharmaceutical grade mineral oil. It thickens and seals nicely without increasing the viscosity to the point of slowing down the valves, and you can have complete control over the "mix" necessary for your particular situation.

[andrew the tuba player]

I had a thought..I'm not sure it's a valid one, so please tell me if i'm not. But, Couldn't soft springs mess with your lower range? High range (as we know) uses a more defined, "smaller" airflow.So, If the valve was sitting just a little off, would this not cause the high range to come out good, but the low to be stuffy since it uses a less defined "bigger" airflow? Just a little question of mine.

[Jack Denniston]

I think this old York Eb sousaphone may be a keeper after all.

As some of you suggested, I tried some heavier valve oil. That seemed to help a bit.

Then I tried a Kelly 25 mouthpiece. That helped a lot. The sound is lot more focused, and this old sousaphone is even starting to sing just a bit in the middle and upper register.

The Bb below the bottom of the staff is still a bit unfocused, but it's better. The false tones are a lot better, and so are the pedals.

I noticed that the 3rd valve tubing is partly flattened out where it goes around the bend at the top end and I'm wondering if it would be worth the effort to have it un-soldered and rounded out.

And I'm going to try a Kelly 24W mouthpiece.

Thanks for your suggestions- I really appreciate it.

Jack

[Donn]

Another thing that might bear some looking at is the leadpipe and tuning bits apparatus. If any of the joints leak at all, that would be bad. I don't know if there's any way to spot a leak, but you can take it apart and seal with teflon plumbing tape or something and see if you notice any difference.

[Dan Schultz]

I have to recant a little here....

'Windshieldbug' pointed out to me that York serial numbers do not run up to 600,000... at least not on any published lists. I mis-read your post to read 60,000 and completely overlooked the fact that you menioned that this horn is a York 'Artist' series. Maybe Klaus can shed some light on the York 'Master' and 'Artist' series of horns.

Sorry

[Jeff Miller]

Dude, if you like it, just keep playing it with other people until you figure out its personality and how it needs to be treated.

My Eb sousaphone is TERRIBLE, but everytime I use it, my colleagues love it!