Adjusting overall ensemble pitch?

[tbn.al]

As the lowest voice, do you adjust your intonation to the rest of the ensemble or rather lay down a correct fundamental pitch and let everyone come to you?

I recently had a situation present itself in a quintet rehearsal that brought this to the surface. I must have inadvertently kicked my main slide in an inch while playing. We rocked along about 5 minutes with me unconsciously lipping down and the rest of the group struggling to match. Finally we stopped and fixed the problem. Upon listening to a rehearsal tape later I was shocked to find that my ear heard the trumpets flat even though I knew that the problem was a sharp tuba. I once had a band director who instructed the trumpet section to follow the pitch of the tuba even if it is wrong on the tuner because the listener is going to perceive the tuba right and you wrong because they are the lowest note of the chord. I do find a lot of trumpet players, and violinist, too stubborn for this to work. What has been your experience and how do you deal with it.

[Casey Tucker]

it completely depends on the ensemble i'm in. in a brass quintet, everyone has a solo voice so there has to be "give-and-take" within the ensemble. in this instance i would tend to take pitch from our first trumpet. he's 99.99% in tune and he's easily heard above everyone else. in a large ensemble i do both. i listen throughout my section (wind ensemble) first and then i listen up from the low brass. in an orchestra the same applies. i sit next to one of my best friends. he and i lay in tune pretty well so we listen to each other and then up. we typically just keep a tuner handy in case we're wrong.

-casey

[Tom Mason]

There are many ensembles whose conductors tend to teach to tune to the lowest member of the group. This has to do with the ease of hearing the member of the ensemble. It is usually easier to hear the tuba section from all areas of the ensemble as opposed to trumpets, flutes, or other instruments that usually sit toward the front of a group.

To me, it is easier to tune to a lower voice than a higher voice.

Tom Mason

[MaryAnn]

13.

I will just add, that the more "pro in attitude" a group is, the more mutual adjustment goes on. It's not that the pros "never" hit a note out of tune, it's that when they do, they adjust so quickly that it basically escapes notice of the audience. And they all adjust, not just some of them. Not only for intonation but for dynamics and ensmble, etc. It's an interplay, not a follow-the-leader, for much of the playing. If I'm playing duets, for example, I always unconsciously and immediately adjust my pitch if an interval is out of tune, whether I'm on the top part or the bottom part. It gets more complex with more parts, and then agreement has to be reached what is to be adjusted to, and commonly that will be the part on the bottom.

MA

[windshieldbug]

later I was shocked to find that my ear heard the trumpets flat even though I knew that the problem was a sharp tuba

Your ear, then, is now oriented to low sounds, and you heard the trumpets as out-of-tune. They probably heard the same recording, and found the bass out-of-tune. (quickly, look at the trombone player quizzically to shift suspicion )

MA has it right, in that players should seek to come together, wherever that may be. THAT is the basis for just tuning. You either hear it or you don't. If you don't, the odds of you adjusting the correct amount are practically nil at best.

[djwesp]

in this instance i would tend to take pitch from our first trumpet. he's 99.99% in tune -casey

Blasphemy!

[TubaSailor]

I play in several groups, and I've found I have to be really sensitive to how I approach each - one group is 95% students and the other is about 65% pro and ex-pros, with the remainder being pretty good enthusiasts. The student group gets a more solid bottom, with less compromise on my part to fit their (Unfocused, broad) pitch center, while the semi-pro group gets my full attention to fitting in, rather than trying to insist on my pitch. The student group needs the stronger pitch statement to pull the intonation together, which the pros don't need. (as much)

[windshieldbug]

How does equal temperament tuning effect the sound of the organ in situations such as this?

The organist was probably back in the pipes trying to come up to the orchestra's pitch...

[jonesbrass]

For me it all boils down to listening, just like everything else in music. It's better to be "wrong" together than to be "right" alone.

[tbn.al]

Play with a fixed pitch instrument like a pipe organ..(@!##%!@!!!).

I played a concert a few years ago featuring the C. Saint-Saëns Organ Symphony where the organist got lost.

How does equal temperament tuning effect the sound of the organ in situations such as this?

I had the same thing happen last spring in the Phillips Toccata. Pitch is relative alright, a relatively minor issue when this happens.

[windshieldbug]

On that note, it boggles me as to why ensembles try to ALWAYS tune to A-440, regardless of the air temperature. It's important to note that for every one degree of temperature change, pitch changes 2 cents

True, but can you imagine the oboe taking the temperature, consulting a chart, and THEN making the required adjustment!?

(we're lucky they put the reed in the right end, as it is! )

[brianggilbert]

On that note, it boggles me as to why ensembles try to ALWAYS tune to A-440, regardless of the air temperature. It's important to note that for every one degree of temperature change, pitch changes 2 cents

True, but can you imagine the oboe taking the temperature, consulting a chart, and THEN making the required adjustment!?

(we're lucky they put the reed in the right end, as it is! )

** or you could just simply shoot the oboe player **

[corbasse]

On that note, it boggles me as to why ensembles try to ALWAYS tune to A-440, regardless of the air temperature. It's important to note that for every one degree of temperature change, pitch changes 2 cents.

RC

Yeah, but winds go up when it gets warmer, and strings go down and the other way round when it gets colder, due to the fact that the string expansion/shrinkage is more than the change in the speed of sound. Keeping 440 as a midway point makes sense then.

I (unfortunately) vividly remember playing a concert a few years ago with baroque instruments in a big 15th century church, where they forgot to put on the heating well before the concert, in winter, when it was freezing outside.
I can't remember if I shuddered more because of the temperature or because the different groups in the orchestra were about a quarter tone apart. (Gut strings are much more perceptible to temperature changes than modern steel ones.)

[windshieldbug]

Gut strings are much more perceptible to temperature changes than modern steel ones

... and therefore the pegs are MUCH harder to turn!