Eb Tubas

[eupher61]

Are you literate on F now?

Is it a great instrument, in addition to a killer deal?

Red Delicious and Jonathan. Same thing, just a little different.

[eupher61]

Are you literate on F now?

Is it a great instrument, in addition to a killer deal?

Red Delicious and Jonathan. Same thing, just a little different.

[Blake Dowling]

I used to own a 321 and it is a good horn. I only sold it because I severely dislike upright valves. Playing Eb shouldn't hold you back. And since you're not spending too much you can add F later if you deem it necessary. A benefit to Eb is the acceptance into brass band playing (seemingly to grow in popularity).

[Bill Troiano]

How about Marty Erickson and John Stevens?

[MartyNeilan]

A) Overall good horn, check intonation on your particular example - I have seen one or two with really weird tuning issues (possibly damage induced.)

B) You still may be able to find one of the dependant 5th valves out there to make the horn even more versatile in the low register. Otherwise, how in tune is the low F?? Are you false toning the low E? How do the low to high licks in the VW 1st movement sit on it with just 4 valves?

C) The bell points the "wrong way" for most US orchestras. One of the main reasons I never had an upright bell made for my Martin. This may be a big issue in some places, a non-issue in others.

D) The 321 can sound like a small CC. Despite all your clamoring about the 1291 being a "5/4" it is really a large 4/4 and will work well for most quintets. IMHO, that is one of the strongest suits of the 321; so there is considerable overlap. You may want a bass tuba with a "brighter," "more flexible" timbre to have greater contrast with your current axe.

E) For $1800 you may be able to find a decent F if you look hard enough. When you go for your "Didn't Make the Audition" degree, they may prefer an F. Not the time to be learning new fingerings.

Marty "who still regrets selling his F, especially with Brahms Requiem around the corner"

[Lee Stofer]

I won't get into the Eb vs F debate - have used both, liked both. My take is, get a horn you really like and sound good on, and just play it!

I would suggest that you take a good look at the pistons. Some of the earlier models had valve plating issues, so if the pistons have nickel flaking off, or they look pretty horrendous, figure in several hundred Dollars for valve repair. If the valve casings are in good condition and the pistons are not, it might be cheapest to just get new pistons for it, and the new pistons are better-made.

When the question about piston-valve Eb tubas comes up, I can't help remembering the first pro I ever heard using one, Marty Ericksen playing with the Navy Quintet. Man, was that wonderful-sounding!

[josh_kaprun]

I just bought a 321 from Tom Holtz for $1,800 (plus $100 shipping). It should be here this coming Thursday. I'm quite excited about it. It's not the end-game Eb that I want to own, but I believe that it will serve me perfectly well for grad-school auditions this fall, especially after talking with a few people about the horn and reading various reviews on it.

As far as which is better (F or Eb)...I believe that is a matter of personal preference. As a performance major who decided to stick with BBb *gasp*, Eb first seemed more practical to me because of the amount of common fingerings between Eb and BBb. As I learned more, I found that Eb tubas tend to be viewed (and I say this as a very general statement) as more all-around horns than F tubas do. I see that as a major plus as I would really like to be able to have one all-around horn for most of my gigs and then have one horn for when I really have to put out like one must do for larger orchestral works (the next horn I'm going to buy, the Wilson 3100S, will serve that purpose). Eventually, I'm going to invest in a Wilson 3400S as that seems to be a very widely-used all-around horn. The only other Eb I've seen so consistantly used is the Besson Eb, but I've never really liked playing compensating systems.

However, even after saying all of that, I am not saying that everyone should play Eb, because (as I said before) I firmly believe that it is all a matter of personal preference. Seeing as how you're wanting to go for a DMA, you're probably going to want to contact a few teachers from various schools that you would consider getting your DMA from as many of them have VERY strong opinions as to what you should play. Daniel Perantoni, for example, requires all of his graduate (and, I assume, post-graduate) students to play CC and F. By contrast, John Stevens or Marty Erickson would probably have no trouble at all with you playing an Eb as that is what they play on. I've contacted Warren Deck and Kathy Brantigan about doing my Masters with them and they don't care what you play as long as you sound good. Back to my point, though, I would advise to ask your prospective teachers as some of them may not be so accepting of you playing an Eb as others would.

[jonesbrass]

The biggest element here is what you can do with the horn, not what key it is in. If you play well enough, I guarantee no one will care what key your horn is in*. For that matter, if you play really well, you will probably sound like a million bucks on just about anything.

*Yes, there are professors out there who will "prefer" one key over another, but if you REALLY play it, I'd bet they'll forgive your minor transgression. Most importantly, will the professional ensemble you play with care what key your horn is in?

[J.c. Sherman]

Eb and F can be great compliments to one another; but if I owned one, it'd be my Eb. Even if it was my only horn.

The 321 is a non-comp copy of the Boosey Imperal. They're fantastic. I often think it'd be nice to get a fairly new one, and re-do it as a left bell front action...

Anyway, I have a friend with a great one, who added a fifth through the terrific workmanship of Robb Stewart in LA.

There was a 5-valve version, but it was called a 381, not a 321. They discontinued it, and the 5v Euph 321 because (I heard) too many people bought it instead of the more expensive "pro" models.

Eb is wonderful, and no better or worse than F. If you have a great deal, nab it. I would. Most have monel valves, but it is wise to avoid the nickel plate valves... But they can be replaced with the newer ones

J.c.S.

[MartyNeilan]

I often think it'd be nice to get a fairly new one, and re-do it as a left bell front action...

Anyway, I have a friend with a great one, who added a fifth through the terrific workmanship of Robb Stewart in LA.

Bingo.

[tubatooter1940]

I hope you and your Eb make wonderful music.
As a performance major you will likely play tuba in most all keys.
I learned on this forum that CC and F tubas relate as do Bb and Eb horns. However as a player the usual month or so stumbling ,at first,will get you sounding good on your Eb.
I enjoy my Eb King 1940 bell front for rock and pop music. The dents and decorations are a plus for the supper club crowd. The range we play in finds me in the lower 3rd of my tuba's range for bass lines with a comfortable octave jump up for solos. If I need a big sound I mike it.
Listen to it at:

http://www.myspace.com/johnrenomusic

[Steve Inman]

You will most likely get close to your full purchase price out of the 321 should you choose to sell it later to finance part of an F tuba. So, while you're saving another $2K, you could buy the Eb and get some use out of it, then sell it when you're ready to buy the F.

Search Google and this site for sold 321's -- I doubt you'll find many that weren't asking at least $1800.

One other strategy to consider,

[WakinAZ]

Where is your prof, James? You pay your school all that tuition money and then get your guidance from strangers on the internet...

The last two YEB-321s advertised for sale here went for $1800 and $2400.

Eric

[Chadtuba]

Asking about auditioning for grad school, I'm auditioning Monday morning on a Besson 983, not mine, but an undergrad's horn who is kind enough to let me use his so that I didn't have to fly with mine . When I spoke to the prof he had no problems with me just playing Eb, though I am looking forward to learning CC and orchestral experience never having had either of those opportunities with my undergrad studies.

[Biggs]

Sound Ministries, your [sic] a professional but without your [sic] masters...lucky?

My fellow college student, there is more than one way to skin a cat. You don't need a college degree of any variety to become a professional musician. Truth be told, there have been professional musicians that couldn't even read music! Most would consider musical literacy and college-level training to be advantages for wanna-bes like you and I, but don't confuse hard work with luck or you could wind up inadvertently offending some folks.

Although I could pontificate for a while here, I'll choose to follow Bloke's example and curtail my commentary. Briefly, I advise learning to play both Eb and F tubas. The order in which you learn them shouldn't matter.

[windshieldbug]

FOLLOWING BLOKE'S LEAD

You're the one that's got to play the notes. Your audience won't give a rat's a$$ how you do it.

Get whatever knocks your socks off when you play it. And don't buy it UNTIL you play it.

[KevinMadden]

James, you and I have approached very similar situations at very similar times. I'm also one of those 'dumb' performance majors and was recently in the market for a bass.
I knew F, had used F through the school (a PT-16) and had gone to some of the big shops looking at F's. As with you high chops have never been a problem. With that in mind one of the things I was looking for in an F was a kicking low end, the PT-16's low end sucked and it was the only drawback to playing that horn. New horn = major investment and I wanted to be completely happy with something this expensive. The F's I was digging were the big MW's and Mira's like the 45slz, Firebird, etc. and the big Hirsbrunner (my prof plays one and it friggen plays itself in your hands...mucho $$$ though)
I had no experience with Eb but when I saw this York Eb on this board for sale (I have a bit of York fetish too ) I decided to give it a shot, it makes the sounds I wanted in a bass.. kicking low end, sweet high end, manageable tuning, and a lot of flexibility in terms of weight of sound. It was also $3200 as opposed to some of the F's 6k-15k.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that if it sounds good, go for it. And being open to Eb can open up some sweet deals. If the horn is good, there are a lot of dog Ebs out there, go for it. Do it now, as a CC player with no F experience the feel and fingers of an Eb can be a bit of a mind-bender, you don't want that too close to auditions or in grad school you'll want to focus on making music not learning fingers. And I do view this Eb as probably something temporary, I love it and think it was a great purchase but I know its not a be-all and end-all solo horn Sometime down the line I'd probably like to spend some big $$ and move up to a real high-end F if my profession at the time can support it and I can justify it. However, as a College student with a couple grand to use look for a good deal over the perfect horn. If this $1800 Eb can be played to the same level as some 4-6k F's, it's the smarter choice.

[jeopardymaster]

You're the one that's got to play the notes. Your audience won't give a rat's a$$ how you do it.

Amen to that. Trust your instincts, Luke. And your ear.

I like the 321 for most uses, but when I tried it I got a little frustrated with the low range, not having a usable low E.

I've found my 983 a very versatile horn, for orchestra, quintet and solo. My only beefs, 1) the tuning slide is short; and 2) sometimes when I really crank it, I blow the 2nd valve slide out of the horn.

[iiipopes]

I've found my 983 a very versatile horn, for orchestra, quintet and solo. My only beefs, 1) the tuning slide is short; and 2) sometimes when I really crank it, I blow the 2nd valve slide out of the horn.

Any reputable brass repairman should be able to remedy both situations, relatively inexpensively, 1) by soldering on longer inner tubes to the bow, unless you have a step at the top of the outer slide that prevents the tubing from going in any further, as does my Besson, and 2) by running a "ball" or other precise tool of the right diameter through the legs of the slide to slightly expand and therefore tighten them.

[J.c. Sherman]

Ron Bishop played essentially his whole carreer - including the Vaughn Williams and the John Williams - with the Cleveland Orchestra on CC. It can be done, and if you've had the joy of hearing him solo... well, lets say he didn't need anything else.

I've played my Eb in every situation imaginable. For quite some time, I didn't own an F. I now have one for some uses, but my Eb is my treasure. I've played it in the Opera and the Orchestra, Ballet, Dixieland, Solos, recitials, professional Bands... It is my bread and butter, and my greatest luck was aquiring it early.

Me, I'd tell a student to nab the 321, and save the few hundred for one of the many repair techs out there to fit it with a fifth, and there will be no "bad" notes. You don't need an F, but a bass tuba of some sort gives you some helpful flexibility.

My $.02.