Valve oil, Slide grease, and various other lubricants

[Dan Schultz]

So what is the benefit of ultrapure lamp oil vs. regular valve oil such as hetmans?

PRICE!!!! I can make a GALLON of valve oil for what a 2 ounce bottle of Hetmans costs. Hetmans is a synthetic and is very good stuff.... if you use a synthetic, don't borrow a squirt of oil from your buddy. Lots of times mixing lubricants produces bad results if mixed. I like to make my own valve oils simply because I use so darned much of them. I literaly 'flood' my pistons with valve oil. It's my way of washing off any crud or lint that might be present. This idea of putting 'six drops' of valve oil on each piston is to me a waste of time.

Before I try to expain the virtues of 'what's the best lubricant' any further.... let me say this....

The lubricants you use on your horn are as personal as what mouthpiece you choose to use. Like most everything in life... you should use what suits you. What the fellow sitting next to you in band is using might be totally wrong for you.

[TubaSailor]

How does this work with rotary valves? - Since they have such small bearing areas relative to Pistons, does the Ultra-pure lamp oil provide enough film strength to stand up to the pressures? - I'm interested since I also like to use a lot of oil (15-20 drops) down the leadpipe before I play, but don't want to mix (as you mentioned) with different lube on the spindle bearings. I've always used Hetmans for linkages, spindles, and slides. -

[Dan Schultz]

How does this work with rotary valves?

Number one.... I don't advocate 'flooding' rotary valves with oil. Yes... I've dumped oil down the leadpipe but only in extreme circumstances and I knew I would be giving the horn a good cleaning shortly thereafter. The only oil I apply to my rotors is to the spindles at the front and rear bearings. For this, I use a mix of almost straight 30 weight with just enough lamp oil in it to thin it out so it 'looks right'. Ideally, I want the oil to STAY ON the bearings and OUT of the rotor itself. It is my opinion that rotors were never intended to be flooded in oil. It just slows them down. There is enough moisture introduced into the rotors while playing to seal them. After a while, that oil that I put on the bearings will migrate into the rotors. THAT's when I clean them.

Lubrication of rotary valves is a totally different animal from pistons.

[Lee Stofer]

Wow,
Every time lubrication issues are mentioned, a Can-O-Worms gets opened!

1) "Anhydrous" means that the mixture contains water, so anhydrous lanolin is a bad idea for a slide grease. In summer humidity it gets gooey and messy, and in really dry weather it can leave your slides glued in place. I prefer Hetman #8 Slide Grease, a pretty yellow like lanolin, but will not dry out, and is non-toxic and stable.

2) Hetman lubricants are synthetic hydrocarbons, but have no silicones like other synthetics are based upon, so they ARE COMPATIBLE with all traditional, conventional lubricants. Joe Hetman is a brass player, and he realizes that at one time or another (normally just before a rehearsal or gig), we are going to mix valve oils (Hey, can I borrow some valve oil?)

2) If you want to play alchemist, fine, but don't think you are saving money unless you consider your time to have no value. When a single bottle of Hetman valve oil will outlast 8 bottles of a popular brand of valve oil and do a better job of protecting the instrument, I'm saving money in several ways at once. I don't try to make my own motor oil for my gig van. So, I don't try to make my own valve oil for the tuba I'll play, either, that is worth several times what the van is worth!

3) I recommend being generous with valve oil, and particularly with rotor oil, on a clean instrument. It stays oiled longer. If the horn is dirty-enough that oiling it well will cause chunks to come loose and mess up the action, it needs to be cleaned now, anyway.

Feel free to PM with any questions about lubricants. In the last 30-some years, I've tried just about everything on my instruments.

[lgb&dtuba]

Wow,
Every time lubrication issues are mentioned, a Can-O-Worms gets opened!

1) "Anhydrous" means that the mixture contains water, so anhydrous lanolin is a bad idea for a slide grease. In summer humidity it gets gooey and messy, and in really dry weather it can leave your slides glued in place. I prefer Hetman #8 Slide Grease, a pretty yellow like lanolin, but will not dry out, and is non-toxic and stable.

No, actually anhydrous means it contains NO water. Ref:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anhydrous

If you don't use anhydrous lanolin you'll run into the problems mentioned.

[Lee Stofer]

Yes, you're right, I misspoke, let me rephrase that.

Anhydrous does mean that the chemical mixture has been formulated by extraction of water. In my experience, when moisture is re-introduced by playing and by hot, humid weather, the mixture does tend to get a bit gooey. It is completely safe to use in a warm, moist climate.

On the other hand, I received two overhauled tubas back from silver-plating, and the company had installed the slides with anhydrous lanolin. While waiting for the paperwork to materialize from a school that was to purchase these tubas, they sat in the shop for several winter months in their new cases. When the time to deliver them finally came, I decided to give the instruments a once-over, just to see that everything was right when the school received them. I worked for hours to extract the slides without damaging or breaking something. It was as if the slides had been installed with contact cement. Once I did finally get the slides out, they looked fine. Once I got the stuff off of the slides, which now felt much like glue, and re-lubricated the slides with Hetman #8, they worked fine and still do to this day, some 6 years later. I cannot adequately explain why the lanolin dried out and became like glue, but it happened. The slides did work when the instruments first came back to my shop, and once extracted, the slides looked as clean as ever.

When I do my cleaning work and Hetman lubrication, my customers tend to say it feels like brand-new again. That is what I'm after, having the instrument perform like-new, no matter how old it may be, whether it is mine or someone else's.

[Rick Denney]

At the Army Conference, I bought a couple of years' supply of Hetmans lubricants. It cost $50. Maybe I would try to save a buck if I was using it by the barrel as in a shop, but trying to spend less than that for my own use is probably chasing dollars with pennies. I would save a lot by not forgetting bottles of the stuff at rehearsals, but then there are high-school kids at the school where we rehearse who don't have sticky valves because of me.

And I just buy the stuff that says on the bottle what I want to do. Hetmans has great packaging, including very useful needle-tip bottles for rotor and linkage oil. So far, I've found their labeling to be highly appropriate for the applications, including such things as tuning slide oil (for slides that get a lot of exercise) and stiff grease (for those that don't).

Hetmans will mix with anything unlike BiNaK or Alisyn, both of which I have used extensively in the past.

When I apply Hetmans, I don't just apply six drops, either. I give it a good squirt, letting the excess drip down into the casing.

The bottle I spilled on the carpet last weak soaked into a cleaning towel so well that I didn't have to expose my accident to my wife. (Hetmans used eyedropper bottles for a while but thankfully that 'safety' requirement is no longer enforced on them.) Most other oils would have left a mark.

Rick "who has also experienced stuck slides because of glue-like lanolin" Denney

[iiipopes]

Hey, Rick -- I'm with you on the rest of the section not having sticky valves. That's another reason I buy the R-T in the big bottle. This may sound mercenary, but I don't want to be blamed for the section sounding bad when it's some other, person, who forgot valve oil. So for the two cents it costs me in valve oil, it covers a multitude of section sins.[/code]

[TubaSailor]

Rick Denney Wrote:
[When a single bottle of Hetman valve oil will outlast 8 bottles of a popular brand of valve oil and do a better job of protecting the instrument, I'm saving money in several ways at once]

I'm a firm believer that proper lubrication is the #1 way to keep any quality machine working well. I really don't know enough of the chemistry to challenge anyone else's viewpoint on this one, but I do know that for me, Hetman's has always worked well. I've had similar experience with Lanolin - When I purchased the 181, the slides had lanolin on them, and behaved as if they were lubed with molasses. I now use Hetman's Slide Gel. which not only lubes well, but doesn't leave prison stripes on the lap of my tux.

[Rick Denney]

Rick Denney Wrote:
[When a single bottle of Hetman valve oil will outlast 8 bottles of a popular brand of valve oil and do a better job of protecting the instrument, I'm saving money in several ways at once]

Actually, it was Lee Stofer who wrote that, and that should give it much more credibility.

Lamp oil works fine. That's basically all plain valve oils are anyway. But I think Hetmans works better in a wider range of temperature conditions, and it keeps working much longer.

To respond to a question you asked up the thread:

For rotary valves, I use Hetman's linkage oil on the rotor bearings, applied from the outside using the needle applicator. Generally, I don't need oil down in the rotors, and if I do, I just squirt it down the leadpipe or one of the valve slides. Apply the light oil first, drain the excess, and then put a couple of drops of the linkage oil on the rotor bearings. The only time I've had a problem with that was when I got a little ambitious with the rotor oil and a couple of drops drained down into the rotor, slowing it down. A squirt of valve oil rinsed it and it worked fine after that.

I have also used Nyoil, no-name clock oil, and even 3in1 oil. Nyoil is similar to Hetmans. But the Hetmans has a much superior needle applicator that lets me put the oil right where I want it.

Rick "for whom one bottle lasts so long the price is irrelevant" Denney

[Dan Schultz]

Dan,

Is this the SuperLube product you use on slides?


P/N - 21030

Thanks.

Here:
http://www.super-lube.com/Merchant2/mer ... Code=41160

[TubaSailor]

My apologies to both Lee and Rick for the mis-credited quote--
and thanks for the info Rick - It sounds like I'm probably on the right general track, but over-doing the oiling into the rotors. (back to the lurking/listening mode)

[Lee Stofer]

Olive Oil,
Now, there's an idea, Bloke, but I prefer to cook with it ;^) I once worked in a shop where they mixed olive oil, almond oil, vitamin E and other natural ingredients, and soaked really dry clarinet bodies to rejuvenate them in the overhaul process. The only problem with vegetable oils is that they become rancid after a while. There is nothing nastier than a rancid-smelling wood clarinet, complete with dead pad weevils in the case. Now you know why I like tubas so much!

I would like to mention the slide grease that Tuba Tinker uses. SuperLube, an industrial high-temperature bearing grease that has PTFE Teflon, is an excellent product. It is formulated to withstand not only the stresses of wheel bearings, but wheel bearings can get wet, and this stuff is formulated to actually absorb moisture and keep on working. That is why it works so well on tuning slides.

[pg]

On the Hetman love fest topic . . .

I love how Hetmans works on my valves and used it liberally. However, I'd start getting a yellow-ish gummy buildup that would usually start in the valve holes and migrate into the tubing. I switched to the Yamaha synthetic (viper?). Not quite as nice as Hetman but I don't seem to get the gooo. I tried both hetman and selmer slide grease thinking this was the problem - it seems that not using hetman valve oil was the trick.

Any thoughts on this?

--paul;

[sungfw]

Conn Slide Grease (the pink stuff they no longer make) on all slides except for 1st valve
Marvel Mystery Oil or 3-IN-ONE Household Oil on 1st slides

Ok, I'll bite: why MMO/3-in-1 on the first slides instead of slide grease? More moisture, therefore more chance of grease migrating into valve casing and gumming things up? More slide pulling, so needs to be slicker? Inquiring minds want to know.

[JTJ]

I had the same result as Paul. Hetmans left a yellowish residue in my euph's valves and slides. Switching to Yamaha -- no problem, everything stays clean.

John

[Rick F]

On the Hetman love fest topic . . .

I love how Hetmans works on my valves and used it liberally. However, I'd start getting a yellow-ish gummy buildup that would usually start in the valve holes and migrate into the tubing. I switched to the Yamaha synthetic (viper?). Not quite as nice as Hetman but I don't seem to get the gooo. I tried both hetman and selmer slide grease thinking this was the problem - it seems that not using hetman valve oil was the trick.

Any thoughts on this?

--paul;

Hi Paul,

Yes, I've experienced this at times. But usually when I notice it, it's time to clean out the valves and casings anyway. I've been so happy with my horn's performance (mechanically speaking) that I've put up with a bit of yellow residue.

[Dan Schultz]

... I would like to mention the slide grease that Tuba Tinker uses. ...

Hey, Lee! I learned about this stuff from you. Good advice!

[WakinAZ]

On the Hetman love fest topic . . .

I love how Hetmans works on my valves and used it liberally. However, I'd start getting a yellow-ish gummy buildup that would usually start in the valve holes and migrate into the tubing. I switched to the Yamaha synthetic (viper?). Not quite as nice as Hetman but I don't seem to get the gooo. I tried both hetman and selmer slide grease thinking this was the problem - it seems that not using hetman valve oil was the trick.

Any thoughts on this?

--paul;

I noticed this also when using the "classic" (heavier) piston oil and the #8 slide grease together on my King. It did leave a kind of slimy, greasy yellow stuff around the slide tube openings and my spit valves, but I just wiped it off.

I also ditched the annoying removable eye dropper setup, and put it into an old Blue Juice bottle using an empty Hetman needle applicator bottle as a syringe (rather proud of that workaround).

Next time I own a horn that needs thicker oil I will probably try something else, but I am still a big fan of their rotary products and slide lubes.

On piston horns that don't need thicker oil, I like Blue juice.

Eric