Big BBb Piston Tubas still being made

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Rick Denney
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Post by Rick Denney »

J.c. Sherman wrote:The Kanstul looks cool -wonder if he's gonna build a CC version as well - I'll bet that would get him some business, making an affordable BAT CC!

J.c.S.
The Kanstul is a good tuba thought it didn't really shake my tree. But love it or not, it's not a BAT. It's a 5/4 instrument at best, and I would not say it's significantly larger than, say, a Boehm and Meinl 5500. The big Martins, such as the top-action instruments used by the Navy Band in the deeps of time, seem to me substantially larger. It does help fill a gap between a King 2341, which is a small 4/4, and the true BATs of old.

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Post by josh_kaprun »

As I haven't picked one up since the last TMEA, I don't really remember. I do, however, remember that my left hand was able to grab onto the 1st valve slide quite comfortably (I think that I was able to reach right through the horn to grab it), and the positions of the pistons, thumb ring, and thumb key were incredibly comfortable. Again, that's just for me...which leads me back to my original idea of me being freakish in some way or another. If you'd like, I'll try to head over to the Wilson booth at TMEA next week with a digital camera so that I can show you how I'm holding the horn.
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Post by josh_kaprun »

I don't remember exactly how I did it, I just did.

Okay, that's it...I'm going to borrow someone's digital camera and take it to TMEA so that I can prove to you people that I can hold this horn. Please note that, when I originally picked up the horn, I was not using any kind of a stand...however, my back has gotten a bit out of wack since then, so I will probably be using a stand in the picture that I take (and I'll DEFINITELY be using a stand when I own my own).
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Post by Rick Denney »

josh_kaprun wrote:...so that I can prove to you people that I can hold this horn.
I'm not doubting you at all. I just want to know your secret. The picture for me would not be proof but rather instruction.

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Post by iiipopes »

I gotta -- it's been too long since it's been said by anyone in any context on any thread:

York #3

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Re: Gronitz PBK photo

Post by OldsRecording »

TubaJoe92 wrote:Anyone out there with a photo of a Gronitz PBK Please post and not the ones on the website. I know they are rare. But if you have one PLEASE post I am very interested in this tuba.

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Post by Mitch »

Rick Denney wrote: The big Martins, such as the top-action instruments used by the Navy Band in the deeps of time, seem to me substantially larger.
I have one of those Martins. I think. It bears the "USN" engraving, along with "Aug 1960."

It is a large horn.

Sometimes I forget exactly how large, until it gets next to someone else's "large" horn, which it then dwarfs. It has a 20" bell and it looks completely proportionate (as opposed to some of the "Monster" horns which have a large bell diameter that seems mostly flare in the last few vertical inches).

It was a three-valve upright that Sam Gnagey had converted to front action but hadn't yet cut to CC. I'd gone to see Sam about a 4/4 CC project he'd posted, but that one wasn't quite what I wanted. I saw the Martin in the corner and said, "What the heck is that?" I played one, maybe two notes, and said, "Whaddya want fer it?" I've played one horn since that I've wanted more (the MW Baer handmade), but I don't know if I'd say I wanted it $25,000 more. There's something about the Martin. I don't know how much of it is in the proportions, taper, etc., but it's definitely a horn that I wouldn't want to cut unless I had a guarantee that it would be the same. As I've considered it, I've realized the only way I'd have it "cut" would be to have new branches made to replace what's there so I could go back if I wasn't happy. I do know that the only way I'd go to CC with it is if I found a 4-piston cluster with a bore size of .710" (the original bore size). There are a couple/few things about the horn about which I'm not completely thrilled, and I wonder what part of that is due to the bore size of the King valveset (.689", I think) versus what was originally in place.

The more horns I've tried, the more I like the Martin. As the former owner of an extremely unique HB-2P, and formerly an admitted Hirsbrunner snob, I am now on the lookout for another Martin like this one. I haven't yet seen one (including the 'bay) that has quite the same wrap or apparent proportions. I now believe certain Martins are the unsung heroes of the "Golden Age" of tuba making (though we could just as easily argue that we are now in the Golden Age of tuba manufacture, vis-a-vis variety of available choices, $$ aside).

One thing that amazes me about the horn is its responsiveness to mouthpieces. With the HB-2P, any mouthpiece tinkering seemed to have much more psychological than audible impact. On the Martin, however, it seems like a different horn by virtue of the mouthpiece in place. I have heard this also from someone I know who has a friend who's made the same observation about some Martins.

It's not the prettiest horn, and someday I'll have her overhauled. I've never named my instruments before, but for this one, "Ugly Betty" seems to fit. At least until the sound comes out, that is. The other thing about the horn is it's ability to fill a room. The bigger the hall, the easier it feels to play.

If I win the lottery, I'll get the Baer. At least so I'll have a great horn to play while Dan Oberloh overhauls the Martin. :)
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Post by Paul Scott »

Martin had a long, long history and made many interesting instruments. The Martin family were instrument makers in Germany before establishing one of the earliest instrument companies in the USA. The type of instrument you describe, (a side action 4-valve tuba in BBb by Martin) is a rare beast indeed. I've only seen two in my area (NJ)-one is my own from 1940 and another is an example from the late 50s owned by a student. I know of another out in Michigan. I have owned quite a few 3-valve top-action Martins and they still come up fairly regularly. As someone who's regularly combed the 'bay and other "for sale" sites, I've only found one in 8 years, (mine!). Did see a large 4-valved sousa a few years back which would have provided a nice valve block, I imagine.

I don't know about the Navy horns but most Martins have a bore size of .730 and I've really grown to like this size. The valve stroke is not as cumbersome as some bigger-bore pistons. About the only thing I don't like about the original Martins are the teeny little valve buttons-Matt Walters made me some nice big ones so my pinky can reach the 4th valve! If you find a detachable model just get one of Lee Stofer's great repro upright bells and I think you will be very pleased. I have also noticed how different mouthpieces can really have a big effect on the horn's response. I have yet to play a BBb tuba that compares with the old Martins in terms of pitch consistency, tone and adaptability.
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Post by Bandmaster »

Mitch wrote:If I win the lottery, I'll get the Baer. At least so I'll have a great horn to play while Dan Oberloh overhauls the Martin. :)
Then it could look something like this BBb Martin 6/4 Dan put together!

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Post by WakinAZ »

What's up, big man?
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Post by Rick Denney »

JCRaymo wrote:...I am not sure if they are even 37" high. My Eb is taller than my CC. I think the CC/BBb are around 34.5 inches high.
Now, I'm going to challenge that one. I've had a 3100 in my lap on several occasions, and I had to look seriously up to see the top. It felt significantly bigger in my hands than does my Holton, and the Holton is 39 inches tall and somewhat fatter. Maybe they've made different versions, but I suspect the extra two feet in the Bb's open bugle is added at the joints between the upper and lower bows.

The new-style King 2341 is 36 inches tall, and the edge of the bell just about bops me in the head.

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Post by SplatterTone »

if I could find one that didn't go SPLAT at any volume on D to B below the clef
Listen for it. Two full lungs of air in each A-flat. 191 with TU33.
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Post by imperialbari »

In a way this whole discussion is odd. The way I gathered it was, that it was the huge American BBb tubas which were the foundation for the whole line of piston CC BAT's. The Chicago York's may not be cut BBb's, but they are based on BBb models.

Bloke some years ago outed, that the BAT's could be considered huge sousaphones wrapped back to the original tuba shape.

And now there is no American production of BBb BAT's. One large sousaphone is still made in limited numbers, but due to its special valve system it is kind of a sidetrack from the general development (albeit a widely popular sidetrack).

In my eyes it is kind of sad, that some of the best tuba models in regards of sound haven't been in production for about 70 years.

One sinner may be the US military system. There is not much reason for using CC tubas there, pitchwise. If military bands had provided a stable market for large high-end BBb BAT's, they very likely still had been made.

This is not a partisan political point of view. Rather an attempt of a look on market mechanisms.

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Post by The Big Ben »

I haven't seen new Holtons brought up here yet.

What size is the latest 'Harvey Phillips' Holton? It looks big and has pistons also, which is what the OP was getting at.
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Post by Bandmaster »

The Big Ben wrote:I haven't seen new Holtons brought up here yet.

What size is the latest 'Harvey Phillips' Holton? It looks big and has pistons also, which is what the OP was getting at.
Because there are not even close to BAT status. They are 4/4 in size.
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Post by Liberty Mo »

Bandmaster wrote:
The Big Ben wrote:I haven't seen new Holtons brought up here yet.

What size is the latest 'Harvey Phillips' Holton? It looks big and has pistons also, which is what the OP was getting at.
Because there are not even close to BAT status. They are 4/4 in size.
Having played one for about six months, they are on the SMALL end of the 4/4 spectrum. I found it to be overpriced for the product and limited to a quintet or solo setting. It did however work well in jazz.
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Post by The Big Ben »

Liberty Mo wrote:
Bandmaster wrote:
The Big Ben wrote:I haven't seen new Holtons brought up here yet.

What size is the latest 'Harvey Phillips' Holton? It looks big and has pistons also, which is what the OP was getting at.
Because there are not even close to BAT status. They are 4/4 in size.
Having played one for about six months, they are on the SMALL end of the 4/4 spectrum. I found it to be overpriced for the product and limited to a quintet or solo setting. It did however work well in jazz.
I guess that's why... ;)

I saw it described as a 5/4 somewhere else but I guess they are wrong too!
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Post by Rick Denney »

the elephant wrote:(I worked in a shop full time for ten years at a store whose student line brass house horns were all Holtons, so I can say what I did with lots of experience with thousands of horns to back it up: great designs with so-so build quality at a very high price. The Phillips tuba was just a bigger version of these horns, IMO, as far as construction goes.)
Even the 345 was in that category, though I don't know about the price at the time they were new.

Joe and I joked that the primary tool used by Holton "craftsmen" must have been a belt sander.

You just about have to remanufacture them them work, but in some cases it's worth it.

Rick "thinking American manufacturers earned their loss of dominance fair and square" Denney
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Post by TUbajohn20J »

I just love my 20J :D
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Post by J.c. Sherman »

While it's not a BAT, a student of mine has a Harvey Phillips model Holton BBb, which I think is terrific! Lucky kid; it's a school instrument. It can rock the house pretty well. When I repaired it (it had not been played in years), I didn't want to give it back.

I wish I could try the CC version!

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