the lost art of listening

Stefan Kac · Post by **Stefan Kac** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:59 pm

I hear you.

Whether it is due to the nature of modern life, the collapse of our culture, or whatever cliche you want to insert here, let me just say that it doesn't help things when even fellow musicians join in labelling the concert hall "cold", "stale", "forbidding", etc. Those seem to be the words that most people would apply to what I would simply call "attentive listening," which for whatever reason, doesn't seem to be enough for anyone anymore (maybe it never was).

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:09 pm

To further the range, don't forget Miles' exhortation to "say it with silence!"

TubaRay · Post by **TubaRay** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:55 pm

Great post, Stefan. It's too bad we are allowing ourselves to lose such a wonderful part of our existence. (IMHO)

BriceT · Post by **BriceT** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:47 am

did u try to make 17 spelling mistakes??

TubaRay · Post by **TubaRay** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:33 am

BriceT wrote:did u try to make 17 spelling mistakes??

I dowt it. Dat wood hav takn to mutch planing. How cud he hav ben sucesful, anywa?

MartyNeilan · Post by **MartyNeilan** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:23 am

What?

tubafatness · Post by **tubafatness** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:11 pm

I think this feeling of the "lost art of listening" is another reason why John Cage and his work is so important to me and others. You may think me a heretic for saying this, but I think that a piece like "4'33"' is even more relevant today than when it premiered.

Aaron H.

TubaRay · Post by **TubaRay** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:30 pm

tubafatness wrote:I think this feeling of the "lost art of listening" is another reason why John Cage and his work is so important to me and others. You may think me a heretic for saying this, but I think that a piece like "4'33"' is even more relevant today than when it premiered.
Aaron H.

Well, at least to me, it couldn't be any less relevant.

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:47 pm

goodgigs wrote:Have you even bin in an audence so intence they held their breath?

Yes, in ones that were awed, and in ones that were spellbound by the art.

If music doesn't do this to us, and to the people we surround ourselves with, then why in the world would we habituate a BBS concerned with just that?

bearphonium · Post by **bearphonium** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:51 pm

Brian,
This is a thought provoking thread. I have never had that kind of audience experience that you asked about. I have sat in an audience and watched people do any number of things EXCEPT pay attention to the performance.

I would hazard a guess that we are moving towards a time when if "entertainment" isn't incredibly fast paced, with lots of bright lights, rapidly changing visual images, and very loud sound then it is "boring". (As a for-instance: Can anybody watch the lead-in to Monday Night Football anymore? Or, the exerpt on Sports Center "Ultimate Highlight"?) It is too fast, too loud and too extreme for me to enjoy watching, and I have to turn the volume off and not watch the screen. I did not grow up playing video games/using a computer/cell phone/PDA and do not feel the need to multi task my entire waking life.

People are uncomfortable with silence--I think, to some degree, it scares them.

Ally"who feels old and out of touch most of the time"House

TubaRay · Post by **TubaRay** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:26 am

schlepporello wrote:
goodgigs wrote:Because if we don't have an audence we have no reason to play.
Here Here!

Where? Where?

tubatooter1940 · Post by **tubatooter1940** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:03 am

I get wrapped up in music but after so many years of arranging for bands, I treasure opportunities for silence. I wanna hear the wind, the birds, shrimp farts or whatever.
No radios are allowed on my sailboat - only weather radio when storms threaten. Manufactured sounds divide my attention and prevent me from getting in sync with momma nature.

MaryAnn · Post by **MaryAnn** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:22 pm

I'm with you there, Tooter. I have 3.4 years more or less to retirement, and I'm gonna get outa this blue-blazes-hot desert and go where there is salt water!! Probably not a sailboat, since I did that already and found it was more work than I wanted, but a sea kayak and Puget Sound is what I have in mind. I've done that a couple of times in wilderness areas and found it had exactly the kind of peace I'm looking for.

MA

TubaSailor · Post by **TubaSailor** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:52 pm

I play in a very unusual genre, with a group of 15, and we've have several instances where at the end of a piece (not necessarily a "fireworks/fast & furious" but a quiet, comtemplative piece), there's been a 4-count of dead silence. Then the applause would start. Several times we've heard a hushed "wow" from the back of the audience somewhere. That's really what it's all about for me - we give the audience something that is emotionally moving, and hopefully a unique experience.

ken k · Post by **ken k** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:11 pm

TubaSailor wrote:I play in a very unusual genre, with a group of 15, and we've have several instances where at the end of a piece (not necessarily a "fireworks/fast & furious" but a quiet, comtemplative piece), there's been a 4-count of dead silence. Then the applause would start. Several times we've heard a hushed "wow" from the back of the audience somewhere. That's really what it's all about for me - we give the audience something that is emotionally moving, and hopefully a unique experience.

I hate it when someone in the audience feels they must be the first to applaud and ruins that moment of silence at the end of a subtle soft piece.

My quintet just did a recital Sunday at our local museum and it was a small intimate setting with less than 100 people in the audience. We had two pieces* that ended in soft beautiful chords and the audience just left it end and let the sound fade from our memory. It was very nice. (I hope they weren't asleep.)

ken k

*the two endings were the "Adagio Team" movement in Horovitz's "Music Hall Suite" and the end of Michael Kamen's "Quintet."

tubatooter1940 · Post by **tubatooter1940** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 4:16 pm

ken k wrote:
TubaSailor wrote:I play in a very unusual genre, with a group of 15, and we've have several instances where at the end of a piece (not necessarily a "fireworks/fast & furious" but a quiet, comtemplative piece), there's been a 4-count of dead silence. Then the applause would start. Several times we've heard a hushed "wow" from the back of the audience somewhere. That's really what it's all about for me - we give the audience something that is emotionally moving, and hopefully a unique experience.
I hate it when someone in the audience feels they must be the first to applaud and ruins that moment of silence at the end of a subtle soft piece.

My quintet just did a recital Sunday at our local museum and it was a small intimate setting with less than 100 people in the audience. We had two pieces* that ended in soft beautiful chords and the audience just left it end and let the sound fade from our memory. It was very nice. (I hope they weren't asleep.)

ken k

*the two endings were the "Adagio Team" movement in Horovitz's "Music Hall Suite" and the end of Michael Kamen's "Quintet."

Tuba Sailor, You guys reached them emotionally. You got their wonderful feedback. It's so sweet when that happens.

kenk, Applause is cool no matter how you get it - even in the wrong places.
Mary Ann, I can't believe you think sailing is more work than sea kyaking. Think autopilot, relaxation, a free silent ride.

Toobist · Post by **Toobist** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 4:35 pm

On a heartening note, I asked a student of mine (12th-grader) the other night if she's ever experienced that instant after a piece where the whole audience is silent while the last note/chord is 'simply put out into the universe.' Yeah... I've been getting a little existential in my teaching. She totally got it! It was great to know that 1) some young people still recognize the gravity and importance of live performance and 2) they are keen enough to realize just how ideal and down-right cool that sort of response is from an audience.

We've all sat through concerts where everybody on stage was a phenominal musician and certainly played their part exceedingly well. Sometimes we, the audience, don't leave invigorated, moved, enlightened, or anything but marginally effected by some performances by just such musicians. Unfortunately the points made above by another poster describing concert halls as cold and forboding may be mainly due to these same musicians and those who wave sticks in front of those same musicians. Just today I was listening to some amazing players on a Mahler 5 recording and I was swept away on a long (I mean 72:26 isn't a short time) and stimulating journey. Plop those same musicians on a stage in front of me and I doubt my attention could hold up to the first 3 movements (of 5!) without taking note of crinkling candy wrappers, shifting my cramped legs, checking out that flautist who's been resting for 58 bars... etc. Basically, if we continue to think of our 'gigs' as 'jobs' and show the audience ANYTHING but enraptured, enthusiastic or at least contented demeanors while we're presenting our ART, we're gonna lose 'em.

I regularly spend time playing and socializing with many musicians who make the majority of their livelihoods on one 'gig' (i.e. symphony orchestras who pay enough to live on). I can't tell you how many times I've had to walk away or change the subject, at the very least, when musicians with a regular and well-paying gig go on and on about things like this week's horrible guest conductor or the flatulence of their stand partner (Go figure! We live on stuff like that in the back row and they complain about it up front!) and think that the freelancer (me) sitting across the table would give his left arm (or more) to take his/her place!

There are orchestras out there (I'll keep using orchestras as an example.) who still seem fresh and really let us, the audience, know they appreciate the money we shelled out for the ticket. How did they do it? We weren't made to feel that they were doing the audience a favour. Rather, they let us know that their performance is worth the ticket price and that they appreciate the fact that they are able to do what they love for a living. They don't punch the clock and wonder 'when in the hell is the grazioso section? I drank too much coffee at intermission!' Instead, they relish the idea of sharing the stage with gifted musicians and charish the fact that they're full-time professional musicians. Don't get me wrong...nobody loves his/her job every day. Letting it show in posture or expression that the eb and flow of the music you're playing on stage isn't the most involving and rewarding thing you've ever done will only take away from what would otherwise be a fantastic and engaging performance.

Those performances are out there. The trick is finding them. If we can try our best to keep things in perspective while making our ART and realize it's a visual art form as well when it's a live performance, we just might find our gigs more rewarding, make our performances more memorable and heck! sell a few more tickets!

Now to tie this to the original post:

For the greater part, the audience members have pretty good ears. In a live show it's the performers who really decide how much how much the audience is gonna listen.

ken k · Post by **ken k** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 5:08 pm

tubatooter1940 wrote:
ken k wrote:
TubaSailor wrote:I play in a very unusual genre, with a group of 15, and we've have several instances where at the end of a piece (not necessarily a "fireworks/fast & furious" but a quiet, comtemplative piece), there's been a 4-count of dead silence. Then the applause would start. Several times we've heard a hushed "wow" from the back of the audience somewhere. That's really what it's all about for me - we give the audience something that is emotionally moving, and hopefully a unique experience.
I hate it when someone in the audience feels they must be the first to applaud and ruins that moment of silence at the end of a subtle soft piece.

My quintet just did a recital Sunday at our local museum and it was a small intimate setting with less than 100 people in the audience. We had two pieces* that ended in soft beautiful chords and the audience just left it end and let the sound fade from our memory. It was very nice. (I hope they weren't asleep.)

ken k

*the two endings were the "Adagio Team" movement in Horovitz's "Music Hall Suite" and the end of Michael Kamen's "Quintet."
Tuba Sailor, You guys reached them emotionally. You got their wonderful feedback. It's so sweet when that happens.

kenk, Applause is cool no matter how you get it - even in the wrong places.
Mary Ann, I can't believe you think sailing is more work than sea kyaking. Think autopilot, relaxation, a free silent ride.

Actually when I made that comment about hating when someone applauds invading that space, I was speaking as a member of the audience, not the performer.

TubaSailor · Post by **TubaSailor** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 6:32 pm

I believe that the difference we experience between cold, technically correct music (oxy-moron?) and leaving the audience in a awe-struck silence is the difference between simply playing and performing. The live performance of music has to make a connection and have a commonality with the audience that is beyond playing the piece technically perfect. (I wish I could do that, but given a choice I'd rather play musically and reach the audience, than play perfectly and leave them cold) How many times have you seen the conductor ignore the audience as if they didn't need to be there? I've been very lucky that the individuals in one group I play with are very open and engaging with the audience, (sometimes even play to them!) and our conductor encourages the connection. We often have audience members come up to the stage at the end of show & ask questions, discuss techniques, and in general show that they've been moved by our performance. That connection is priceless.

TubaSailor · Post by **TubaSailor** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 6:42 pm

After posting the last comment I realized it needed to be a bit more focused. The point I was trying to make was that audiences will listen if we perform the music, they will be bored to death if we only play it. Particularly if its an old standby that's been done often, and everyone knows what its "supposed" to sound like. Involving the audience is the essence of the art of live performance. (Have I beat that to death or what?

We need to savor the music as much as we hope the audience will.

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