Conn Eb with 4 valves ( ED. Pictures posted)

[PolkaNoble]

A friend has owned an old Conn Eb for decades. He supplied these stats: 4 valve, 17 1/2" bell 36" high, 20 pounds, SN131747, made in 1913.

He has retired it because it plays flat. I played it (for a few minutes, years ago) and confirmed that the horn is flat and I suspected at that time that the valve set leaked. Of course the horn may not even be pitched at A=440. It is NOT wildly out-of-tune with itself, as I remember. ON EDIT It is much worse than I thought!! The valve section (and maybe other places) is so leaky there would be no way to know what it's pitch standard is. And, of course, it does not play in tune with itself or anything else. The horn looks pretty good with few major dents, but is was refinished at one time and it was very poorly done. Note the sparkles in the pictures using flash. That exaggerates the problem, but it is easily visible within six to ten feet, although nor so much from the audiences view.

Several questions arise. Does Conn, or does anyone, have info on the pitch standard for this horn when it was made? I suspect the horn was a really good one at one time. Does it have value as the starting point for a new "frankentuba," PERHAPS IN F, Or value as a restored horn in Eb brought up to A=440?

It is actually looked to be in very good shape except for the pitch issue.

I do not have pictures at this point but I can shoot some in a few days if there is any need for them. Pictures posted here.

He is thinking of trading it in for a 4/4 BBb. I told him to hold off untill we establish its true value. It may be a treasure.

Maybe Dan Schultz or Lee Stofer would like to comment after seeing the pictures. The owner would probably now be interested in, or at least would consider reconditioning the horn if that is practical.

[/img]http://links.pictures.aol.com/pic/2b70x ... 3Ig=_l.jpg
[img]



OK Images still not up. When they are I'll put a new post on this thread and include them there.

[J.c. Sherman]

It is a treasure. But if it's a monster, you'll end up with a fog-o-phone with no center if it's chopped to F. However, if it's more normal size, it would merely be sin to chop it. A big one in my book...

J.c.S.

[Kevin Hendrick]

... it plays flat. I played it (for a few minutes, years ago) and confirmed that the horn is flat and I suspected at that time that the valve set leaked. Of course the horn may not even be pitched at A=440. It is NOT wildly out-of-tune with itself, as I remember.

If the valves leak, trying heavier oil would be a good first step -- if it comes up to pitch, that's likely the problem. If not, there may be leaks elsewhere (see various posts & threads on leak testing). As you indicated, though, it might have been built to A=435 or some other low-pitch spec -- if that's the case, shortening the main slide (and probably one or more of the valve slides) could be enough to bring it up to 440.

[eupher61]

if it's gonna be frankened, better to make it a CC.

[bill]

If it is made around 1913, I would suspect it is made with a duplex slide - two parts, use the bottom, alone in to the horn proper or the bottom of the tuning slide in to the middle slide and then that in to the horn proper. In either case, I have never found that these horns play 440 very happily, as nice a sound as can be made on them by a good player.

I think I remember that the concept of A=440 was agreed upon in a consensus in about 1912 and horns built for the next few years (and for some of the previous ones) used the duplex slide to give you either low pitch or high pitch. There was never any provision for lengthening the valve slides, however, so the horns don't do well at either high pitch or low. If you have a horn like this cut in to a CC, the valve section will be something else, most likely, so it won't matter.

I have a 3 valve "jumbo" version of this and it is currently being "reconfigured" in to a standard pitch horn. The 3 valves are front valves. Its bell is larger than the one you describe and it was made in 1914. I had another 3 valve, made in 1912, jumbo, with top valves. As far as I know, it is or was cut into a CC. It's main bugle was a bit larger than an HB-2 (saw it on a table, side by side with an HB-2) so a repair man wanted to do the conversion to a CC. I wanted a front valve horn so we traded. Without some modification, though, neither horn, as an Eb, would play well in tune at A=440 although both made beautiful sounds.

[PolkaNoble]

There are no plans to modify this horn except to get it to play in tune. The "Framkentuba" idea was almost an afterthought.

I think it should be restored and brought to modern pitch, but my friend is open to do anything to maximise its use, including playing it again after restoration, or selling it to DR. Frankenstein. He does not need a F tuba. I don't need another CC or an F.

I just want to help him get the best deal or the best use from it. I think it would be great if it turned out to be something special.

[windshieldbug]

"French Pitch" or "International Pitch" were defined in 1839 as A=435. My 1907 Conn double-belled baritone was built to 435, and I had to recreate High Pitch tuning slides (A=457, pulled way out) for it to bring it up to 440. American 440 was adopted in 1925.

Pitch standards

[PolkaNoble]

Here are 3 pics.

http://shutter10.pictures.aol.com/data/ ... Tl0300.jpg

http://shutter12.pictures.aol.com/data/ ... vL0300.jpg

http://shutter10.pictures.aol.com/data/ ... Tl0300.jpg

I have a few more pictures, but this is probably enough. If you really need more I can even take more and email them.

[Dan Schultz]

I don't think a 17 1/2" bell qualifies it as a 'monster'. According to the Conn Loyalist, it looks like an old style 12J/13J. Look here:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~cderksen/Conn12Jd ... image.html



('cept with four valves)

[J.c. Sherman]

Looking at those valves, you may be faced with the same problem I have - You simply have to have them refitted (replated) to get it to play properly, then you can determine what pitch/tubing adjustments need to be made.

I have a non-monster of the same period - gorgeous! But It's gonna be a small fortune to fix the valves. My monster, however, was gutted and 5 valves are bing put in in their place.

<<SIGH>>

J.c.

[PolkaNoble]

Right, Probably not a Monster Eb..Still a pretty big eefer

Also right. Replating valves looks like the only way.

Still to be determined: Is it worth the money. Repair? Sell?
For how much?

Only my friend can know that and we don't have enough info for that yet.

[J.c. Sherman]

You're looking at around $600 to plate the valves, but the tuba may be worth $1,500 or more; maybe less. Hard to say. And her price won't be $600 less due to the valves, I think. People will purchase it based on it's possibilities!

She sure looks pretty!

J.c.S.

[jon112780]

I had one of these awhile back, it was also the 4 valve side action like the one in your picture. Here's the link from when I sold it.

viewtopic.php?t=21059&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Hope this may answer any questions.

[J.c. Sherman]

These photos, plus the similar project on the Village Tinker website, made me work on my own Eb Monster Conn. I have fashioned a new leadpipe, installed a fifth valve rotor, and installed a Conn 14J valve section, with an added 4th valve to that. Regular Conn Finger Buttons.

I've had a chance to try it, and I had to chop the third valve a little more, and the fourth tubing as well. The only other problem is that in my haste, I designed a fifth valve which can hardly be removed. Do I redesign, or design a tool to remove it. Hmmm.... Feeling pretty dumb on that front. But it LOOKS awsome

The leadpipe and tuning slide (which I also moved after the valve section - had to, it was a top-action horn!) change helped it enormously. And $%@# this thing is big! The sound belies it's pitch; its huge sounding, comparable to many 4/4 CCs. I can't wait to finish it, but other peoples projects ($$$) take precedence.

J.c.S.