trombone sonorities

[Mudman]

The current US Trombone sound can be a little on the dull side. Modern instruments exchange an exciting timbre for one type of attack and eveness of tone in all registers.

King 3B in an orchestra, not likely. You can make a symphonic sound on a 3B in the mid to upper registers. It is not a big enough sound down low or even in the middle register for most things. 3B's work great in salsa music. A Bach 36 works well as an orchestral horn on many works. Some reputable sections do use a 36 (or similarly-sized instrument) on top.

Orchestral playing is often about producing a consistent slab-o-product, not being an exciting soloist.

The CSO section is known for having used bass trombone slides on their tenor trombones (still do?). They sound great, but admittedly when Friedman or Mulcahy play high, it sounds like they are playing in the middle register. I like hearing some extra edge or a hint of strain when a player goes for the top notes (just like a singer who puts some passion into his music). The CSO is one of the most amazing sounding sections, in spite of large instruments.

[Tubadan]

I agree... I think that smaller bore instruments should be used all around for orchestral playing on most pieces, only due to thats what they were written for. Larger bore instruments are a fairly new concept. All these composers wrote with the intent of hearing a smaller bore instrument. This may turn into a topic about interpretation, but I am all for making it sound like the composer intended it to. Just my opinion.

[Mudman]

Let's not forget the other reason brass instruments have developed into cannons: LOUD IS EXCITING!!

Big horns put the sound in the hall. (Before anybody flames, soft can be exciting too.)

I like the sound of old-school players on Conn 88H trombones. Playing next to the late John Hill was one of the most inspiring concerts I took part in. When he started to unleash some sound, I nearly crapped my pants. It was this terrifyingly beautiful, edgy roar of sound. "C'mon kid, back me up here . . ." he said as I struggled to keep up on my Alessi-sized Edwards tenor.

[Lew]

Worse still is the bass trombone player in our band who is playing 4th trombone, not bass parts, and blasting his brains out on everything. On just about every recording of the band I hear this disturbing "blat," and it is never coming from the 5 person tuba section.

[Louis]

I like the sound of old-school players on Conn 88H trombones.

An 88H is a .547" bore instrument. But you can get it with an optional .525/547" dual bore slide.

I read somewhere (a trombone board maybe) that Ralph Sauer, principal with LA Phil, was using a .525 slide with his Conn 8H (the non-F-attachment 88H) most of the time now.

I happen to be one who prefers the tone/sound/color/whatever of the larger equipment, generally. But not always. Certainly I like to hear it from soloists, trombone quartets and choirs, etc. But in ensembles like orchestras, concert bands, etc., I agree that the larger gear may not always blend with the rest of the brass as well. A good player has to listen and make it work.

A "trombone" is a "big trumpet". Not a "small tuba".

Louis

[jacobg]

Trombone players are playing bigger instruments to produce more volume with less edge. A large bore instrument gets edgy or brassy at a higher decibel level. Modern orchestras are louder in every way than their predecessors. Bigger halls, bigger orchestras, bigger instruments, louder instruments. Trombone players are no more guilty than anyone else, as witnessed by the countless tubenet discussions of tiny tubas used in original performances. Why are Eb's so scarce in the orchestra? Why do we use the term BAT? or 6/4? Trumpet players also can be seen with extremely large instruments, such as the Monette, which I saw Charles Schlueter struggle to hold with Boston a few years ago.
Much like modern athletes, modern brass players have physical conditioning undreamed of 100 years ago. Arthur Pryor, the most famous trombone soloist of the first half of the last century, played on a small trombone. His high range reached a C in the middle of the treble clef staff. Joe Alessi plays an instrument heavier than any bass trombone of Pryor’s era. Yet his high range can repeatedly reach F above Pryor’s C, and sometimes even higher. Why should he play a small bore trombone, which compromises the tone quality of the lower register, so important to late romantic trombone repertoire, when he has no problem with the higher tessitura?
If trombone players are to change to smaller instruments, it needs to be by a directive from the top. The modern trombone sound is not just accepted by the players and section leaders, but by the conductors. Conductors sit on the panels of auditions and shape the orchestra’s sound in rehearsals. However to alter the size of instruments in one section the conductor would have to balance the rest of the orchestra as well. This might mean different equipment for all sections, as well as reduced string complements. This type of drastic reduction is not likely to happen soon.

[Matt G]

Some of the better concert's I played on tuba in my college orchestra was when the Principal T'Bone played on a Conn 36H (Alto T-bone) when the part was labeled as such. I only had one tuba, really, so I just lightened up a bit ('Fone 188CC which this was possible). The second 'bone was on a Benge 170F(??? .547 tenor) and the Bass was on a Holton TR-181, whish is a very "bright" bass trombone.

I agree that playing on a "Tenor" trombone with a .547 downtube and in some cases a .562 uptube into a .565 "Tenor" bell section is a bit extreme. Playing on a 2G rim on a 3G cup for standard lit is a little over zealous as well.

I do think that, like Joe mentions, a lot of this has to do with some of those "golden age of stereo" recordings. All to often, even if it wasn't the players' fault, some recording engineer just kept nudging up the t-bone/tuba mic(s) until the overall sound had enough doom and gloom in it.

I have heard some of the loud players play damn loud in person and I can tell you that a great deal of the heroic sounds we hear on recordings is more about mic placement than volume of sound.

I do wish we could pick up more "period" recordings of many of standard symphonic works. Luckily with Bruckner, Mahler, and Wagner, the German orchestras still play with instruments closer to reality. Unfortunately with much of the other "stuff", especially French and Italian, we hear guys steamrolling the strings with the brass whole notes.

One other thing, where those King 3B's (I've seen many with "Symphonic" engraved on the bell) and Bach 16's excel are the fact that they have a beatiful tone at soft dynamics.

This then points to trumpet players playing on instruments that are colorless also. Rotary valve trumpets have a sound unmatched by any "bach-a-like", especially at softer dynamics.

I have no clue where this will stop, but it more than likely will. Mostly out of neccessity. Then out of artistry.

Notice how most good players still break out the "small" horn for solo stuff? Isn't orchestra playing, for us brass, all "solo" stuff?

[Mudman]

Yeah, I understand the "no vibrato" thing with symphony orchestra trombonists...but I think that "no vibrato" on that particular solo is something that will easily pidgeon-hole a principal trombonist as a "symphony player" rather than as a "musician".

Trombone vibrato changes with the times. At one point several decades ago, a fast, nervous vibrato was in favor. Straight tone then became the American standard, and now a nice warm lip/jaw vibrato is fairly common. Slide vibrato <gasp> is even more and more accepted in certain solo and orchestral works.

[Biggs]

As a former trombonist, I felt it necessary to weigh in. My hypothesis for the bigger models of trombones dominating most orchestras is this: The trombone is a much older instrument than tuba, and thus more generations of composers from more varied eras are responsible for the creation of traditional trombone repetoire. While I am admittedly uneducated, could this extensive history have something to do with it? It is much harder to find a "general purpose" trombone that seems equally at home in heavier pieces (Wagner, Bruckner, etc.) and older, classical/baroque (sackbut-style) material (such as Beethoven and earlier) than it is to find a "general purpose" tuba.

Regardless, I too am often disappointed to hear trombones that lean toward a warm horn sound than a crisp trumpet sound. But such is the style of time, I suppose. Loud, exciting brass excerpts are generally the orchestral music recognized by the average person (1813, The Ride Fanfare for the Common Man, etc). I imagine it would be harder to fill a concert hall when the program consists of strings-heavy music where the excitement comes in subtler forms.

[GC]

Joe, do you like a more Teutonic sound?

[ken k]

I agree for the most part. Another place where the large trombone is out of place is in the concert band where the large trombone sounds too close to the euphonium and you lose the different color of the trombone sound.

I rarely have students buy .547 horns, especially since most of them really can not handle them. I love the sound of the 3B since I grew up playing one back in the day. I do like the sound of my Benge 190 which is a big bore horn, but that horn plays more like a King than a Bach or Edwards. It has a sweeter sound and will edge out a bit sooner than other horns.

If a kid just gotta have a bigger horn with an F attachment I will try to get them on a Bach 36. Pretty nice horn for all around playing.

ken k

[Chuck(G)]

Trombone players are playing bigger instruments to produce more volume with less edge. A large bore instrument gets edgy or brassy at a higher decibel level. Modern orchestras are louder in every way than their predecessors. Bigger halls, bigger orchestras, bigger instruments, louder instruments.

...and yet the strings like 2- or 3-century old hunks of wood to saw on. To my own ears, there's still nothing more interesting in texture and delicacy than a chamber orchestra or string quartet. It's too bad that the brass has gotten so loud that the wire choir and woodwinds are hard put to keep up with the cannonade.

[Norm Pearson]

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[Mudman]

With the enormous trombones found in orchestras today it's easy to get a warm sound but not the edgy sound.

Modern trombones can produce that "good edge" sound, but the difference is that it is more consistent. On older horns, certain notes pop out in a somewhat uncontrolled manner. This is usually when you will get the hand, when a conductor notices something that is different from the rest of the sound your section is making--one or two attacks that stick out or too much edge on one particular note. The big horns even everything out, with no notes breaking up at extreme dynamics. Attacks are rounded off (it is very hard to play crisply on a large Edwards setup, when compared to a lighter horn like a Yamaha 682G) and everything is sanitized.

At a masterclass given by Joe Alessi, I asked "how loud would you play at an audition?" Joe said, "well, let's see . . ." He played part of Zarathustra, standing about ten feet away from me. This was on his Edwards setup. I could not tell how loudly he was playing. The sound was so consistent that it could have been mp or ffff. Clean and impressive, but not exciting in the way an opera singer goes for a climactic note at the limit of their range. The only giveaway as to the dynamics of the excerpt was how much my head hurt. The sound was so intense, I thought my head was going to explode. My face went beet red, and my ears stung. From this, I concluded that Alessi was playing ffff with a surgically-clean sound.

[Dylan King]

Hey Norm,

Didn't Roger Bobo play in a Mirafone 184 in the Phil? I wonder what the trombonists were using at that time. The orchestra has never sounded better. Whatever you guys are playing, your doing it right.

Have you guys made any horn related adjustments to the new hall?

-DK