Buffing/Lacquering

[TUbajohn20J]

How do you use the "red rouge buffing compound"? Its a little bar that says will provide a mirror like finish. We have the buffer. Just wondering how to use this stuff. Also..do you think this Nikolas gold tinted spray lacquer would be good for some old sousaphone bells? the bells are basically raw brass and have turned brown. We want to polish/buff these and lacquer them. Does anyone know how this might turn out?

[The Big Ben]

How do you use the "red rouge buffing compound"? Its a little bar that says will provide a mirror like finish. We have the buffer. Just wondering how to use this stuff.

1. Apprentice under Master (Stofer, Sellmansberger, Oberloh, you get the idea) for years.

2. Apply rouge to buffer.

3. Polish horn.

[Dan Schultz]

You're going to have one heck of a time refinishing sousa bells using spray bombs of Nikolas. Send those bells to someone who has the necessary equipment. One BIG problem is getting the bells clean before you actually apply the lacquer. Nikolas is OK for touch-up work but I wouldn't suggest using it on large surfaces like sousa bells.

If you attempt to do this yourself, you'll figure out prety quickly why I don't do any refinishing in my shop.

[TUbajohn20J]

i was afraid you'd say this. Guess I'll just have to go with the ol' Brasso and elbow grease, and forget the lacquering because our school doesnt have the money to get this done anyway since their budget was cut.

[dtemp]

You must have "skillz"...

According to my tattoo, it's SKILZ. One L, One Z.

Word.

[oldbandnerd]

If your going to go the manuel labor route can I suggest you use this : http://www.maasinc.com/ . Maas is a lot faster than Brasso and a little goes a long way. It also protects the brass so it doesn't tarnish as quickly.

I use it on my raw brass bugle. It was made by Rexcraft.The original makers of the Official Boy Scouts of America Bugle of which this is one. Rexcraft recommended that Maas be used.

[TUbajohn20J]

wow that bugle is raw brass?? how long did it take you to do that? because it looks brand new. the bells are in pretty bad shape compared to the new ones. but i just ordered some of that stuff. We'll see how it goes.

[Rick Denney]

Buffing compounds are usually grinding powders suspended in a wax. You turn the buffing wheel on, hold the compound brick against the buffing wheel, and some of the compound is rubbed onto the cotton. Then, you hold the brass up against it. The grinding powder removes brass and surface oxide. You have to clean off the wax residue and recharge the wheel frequently.

As with any finishing project, you start with coarser stuff, and gradually move to finer stuff. Rouge is the finest buffing compound, and therefore the last one in the series.

Most instrument makers start with hammers and burnishers, then fine sandpaper, then tripoli (coarse buffing compound), then white polish, then rouge.

Note that the wheel will wear down an edge in a hurry if you drag the edge against the grain of the buff. And the buffing wheel is quite effective at grabbing what you are holding right out of your hands and flinging it across the room. Buffing a hole through the brass is not unheard of. If it catches the edge of a bell, it can bend it before you even realized the danger. And it can also catch your gloves, sleeve, or fingers and send you to the hospital with a mangled mess that used to be an arm or a hand in the course of about two milliseconds.

I learned how to buff brass without lessons, and have managed to avoid breaking things or myself. You can to. But start with something you don't care about, and be hyper conscious about safety. If you teach yourself to do it wrong, then both teacher and student have to accept all the blame for the consequences.

Rick "who started with ragging strips, not a power buffer" Denney

[TUbajohn20J]

Yes i don't want to take any chances. I've never done any work like this and dont have any brass surfaces to practice on first. I think I'm just gonna go with some brass polish and a rag. That'll do..for now

[oldbandnerd]

I bought the bugle brand new.But I have let it go long enough that it looked like the tubas at the end of the line in your picture and have been able to bring it back with Maas. However, since I no longer play my bugle I keep it from tarnishing by keeping it in a vacuum sealed foodsaver bag :

[tubamirum]

NEVER sand a horn! Also, you can spray a horn without degreasing it by being very careful to wipe all traces of rouge with the softest cloth you can find (old flannel). Your job may not last as long but a sousaphone bell is going to get damaged before the lacquer darkens too much. Getting the wheel marks to disappear is tough and takes lots of practice. Don't do it an a humid day.

[J.c. Sherman]

I know the original questioner has decided to go the hand-polishing route, but I'll add to the chorus of those saying "don't try this at home."

Our shop does do refinishing. Even tubas. We have a professional who used to work for King for 40 years do the larger and professional horn jobs. I buff my own custom projects and the trombones and trumpets. Ever been wrapped around a buffing wheel. Ow. French horn thrown to the wall? Trombone ripped apart? Really - don't do this unless you're being taught be a hell of a master at this. You'll hurt yourself or the instrument, even with training. It can be much worse if you're not...

Oh, and to the 'netter who mentioned the B-- A-- wheels - they still scare the $#!+ out of me too!

J.c.S.

[The Big Ben]

Any thoughts on using a slow buffer, like used to finish polish cars? A little Brasso or the stuff Bandnerd talked about and a slow soft buffer might really speed up the job on souzy bells with all that 'semi-flat' space.

[Dan Schultz]

These are both 100% raw brass, hand polished with Semichrome polish and several cloth diapers. And yes, that is a cat's butt visible at the bell of the Cerveny F tuba …

http://www.competitionchemicals.com/

Simichrome is great stuff and won't leave behind all the black mess that Brasso does. Aside from the web site, I've also been able to find it at motorcycle shops... especially Harley-Davidson stores.

And yes... you can speed up the process by using a drill motor with a bonnet buff like is used for polishing automotive finishes.

[Rick Denney]

Any thoughts on using a slow buffer, like used to finish polish cars? A little Brasso or the stuff Bandnerd talked about and a slow soft buffer might really speed up the job on souzy bells with all that 'semi-flat' space.

Those buffers are slow to prevent damage to painted surfaces. Brass polishing is done at a higher speed because it takes more work to grind off the scratches in brass versus paint, and that's what buffing is.

If the brass is already smooth (i.e., it's been buffed before and has a brown patina but no corrosion), then a polish that removes the patina and provides just a bit of polishing will restore the shine. Semicrome works that way, and it works well. I've used a ton of it, particularly on aluminum bicycle parts. Wenol is similar and works a bit better on brass. NevRDull takes a bit more elbow grease, but leaves a more durable, if somewhat soft shine. I like it for polishing up an old tuba that I want to stay looking old.

Slow polishing is fine for surfaces already properly smooth, and they are much less risky. But they won't buff recently hammered and torched brass to a high shine.

Rick "horses for courses" Denney

[Rick Denney]

NEVER sand a horn! Also, you can spray a horn without degreasing it by being very careful to wipe all traces of rouge with the softest cloth you can find (old flannel). Your job may not last as long but a sousaphone bell is going to get damaged before the lacquer darkens too much. Getting the wheel marks to disappear is tough and takes lots of practice. Don't do it an a humid day.

Man, you must be using a different rouge than what was pictured. That wax cake will absolutely screw up lacquer, and in my experience must be removed with a solvent.

While I agree a beginner should never touch sandpaper, how do you think the repair gods get that perfect smoothness? Tripoli will take off as much as sandpaper with enough time, and sandpaper saves time in careful hands. There's a reason Dan Oberloh copper-plates parts during a restoration--so he can sand most of that copper back off while still leaving brass.

That's why I have never wanted perfect smoothness in an overhaul--I'd rather keep the brass. But lots of folks want their overhauls to look new.

And the manufacturers? Bloke and I are convinced that the belt sander was the primary tool used in the Holton factory. That's not a compliment, but all tubas are sanded during manufacture to make them smooth.

Rick "who has piles of sandpaper in 1000 and 4000 grits" Denney

[TUbajohn20J]

so your'e saying..if we polish the sousaphone bells, and hopoefully get a mirror like, new looking finish...they should wear gloves during practice to keep from touching the bell with sweaty hands? and try to get very few fingerprints on it. I'm still thinking about using the Maas polish or the semichrome..and getting them looking brand new, and THEN spraying some of the Nikolas clear lacquer on them. I know it wont look very professional, but who cares? thats our only choice, because we cant get them professionally done. It will keep them looking good longer and thats the whole goal. THanks for all the comments!!

[Dave Hayami]

FWIW, my $00.02,
I've had good results using FLITZ metal polish, with their "power-ball"
drill attachment, It can be found in most automotive stores(Mother's brand also has a 'Power-ball" buffer)
I used the Flitz and the PB when I removed the remains of a Gold Wash on the inside of my sousaphone bell. "Blue-Magic"(also in auto supply stores)
seems at resist tarnishing longer on my SILVER horns, I have not tried it much on BRASS. What ever you use, use with great care(gloves and eye & ear protection) , and lots of fresh air.
Good SAFE Luck, post some after pictures,
Dave Hayami

[TUbajohn20J]

they wont look amazing but hopefully a lot better than they do now. yes i will post some pics afterwards.

[TUbajohn20J]

Yes, they will probably look like crap, just because you're not supposed to use spray cans for sousaphone bells. From far off I dont think they will look bad and thats really all that matters. I'm still curious about that Nikolas gold lacquer..I might buy one can at first, and spray a tuning slide with it just to see how it goes. But hopefully everything will turn out great no matter what i go with