Meistersinger

[randy westmoreland]

How about this?

For Meistersinger in an audition, not a performance: big horn or little horn? I know it is for bass tuba; however the broad, tenuto sections seem to want the big horn. Just curious what people think.

Randy

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Meistersinger...I know it is for bass tuba.

Says who? It's "for" whatever horn it sounds great on - I've played it many times on 5/4 or bigger C tubas without any problems or complaints.

Seriously, I really think it's only us tuba players who obsess over this bass/contrabass/composer's intent issue - play it on what sounds best!

[Todd S. Malicoate]

I agree with you Todd. Rule Number 1 is Make it Sound Good. I think the cause of the confusion is that Wagner seems to have been pretty specific as to Bass tuba or Contra-Bass. I don't understand why this part says Bass Tuba. Maybe an editor's error?

Agreed with the cause of the confusion pointing toward the upper left corner of the printed part.

However, I'm sure you would agree the meanings of BaStuba and KontraBaStuba are a bit different today than they were in 1860s Germany. Maybe we should play this piece on large-bore compensating euphoniums? (you "purists" may wish to speak to the rest of the brass section first, though, as well as provide gut strings and period woodwinds.)

[Wyvern]

I believe all Wagner except 'The Ring' was originally written with bass tuba (F tuba) in mind - however that does not mean it cannot sound good on a CC.

I have played Meistersinger on Eb in the past, but will no doubt use a CC when it next comes up.

[MikeMason]

I like f for the soli section too.It's worry-free,the trill problem goes away,and it is a soli with the celli and basses.A nice B&S f fits perfectly...

[josh_kaprun]

I talked with Markus Theinert about this at TMEA and he was VERY adamant about it being played on a bass tuba as it really is specified in the actual part. Apparently, from what I remember from a different recent post, Roger Bobo agrees with him. So, between Bobo, Theinert, and Richard Wagner himself, I'm sold on performing it on a bass tuba.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

your decision.

The best advice to the OP's original thus far...

Todd "noting how any thread on Meistersinger inevitably leads to the bass/contrabass debate" S. Malicoate

[Art Hovey]

At a New England Tuba Conference some years ago Gary Ofenlach described auditioning for a symphony gig in Germany. (He had already come in second place in seven other auditions.) He started to play it on his CC tuba, and was told that it must be played on F because it says "basstuba" on the score. Apparently Gary had never played it on F before, but he did that day. I guess it depends on who is on the audition committee.

[J.c. Sherman]

Someone asked why we obsess about which tuba size/shape/key to use, when other instruments don't tend to.

Simple - our instrument is young, and not standardized. Trombones are largely unchanged for 500 years. Same with trumpets in form, though they radically reduced in length in the 19th century, and it is a very dicey and challenging decision to play the historical instrument for music for the longer instruments. Horn, less so, but it's still a very similar sound and length for the past 400 years.

Tubas, not so much. There is still no consensus on the form, shape, key or tone of a tuba. As such, we need to be more mindful than other brass players as to what the composer heard, had available, and wrote for to get the appropriate sonic effect. This is specifically for the (German) Bass Tuba, which was and is an F, and has been a relatively stable design for some time (Contras are also still similar to Wagner’s time...).

It lies well for F, but it's a soli with the basses - they're the bottom voice, not the tuba.

J.c.S.

[Mojo workin']

Trombones are largely unchanged for 500 years.

Huh?

[J.c. Sherman]

Grammar police? Or fact check

Trombones have changed little since their inception. In fact, the Bb standard, with larger bores for the "bass" instruments has been much the standard since the 18th century. There are exceptions, G Basses in England, occasional military use of the longer basses, some alto use, etc. But the only material change has been bell diameter.

J.c.S.

[Wyvern]

I have been thinking that just because F tuba have long been the standard orchestral tuba in Germany, does not mean that F necessarily provides the best tuba tone for the work - how do we know if Wagner would not have preferred a modern CC if that had been available in local orchestras at the time?

F tuba was the standard in Britain at the time that Elgar, Holst, Vaughan Williams and Walton were writing, but few would argue that say "The Planets" does not sound better with a bigger tuba.

I wonder if we tend to get too concerned with historical accuracy (I am as guilty as anyone!) - rather than what makes the music sound best to a modern audience whose aural perception must have changed out of all recognition in the last 100 years.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Trombones have changed little since their inception.

I mostly agree with you, except for one major design feature that is germane to this discussion...the bore size of modern trombones is much larger that their historical counterparts. If you look at the trombones Wagner was writing for in the late 19th century, they would be called pea-shooters today (at least the three upper voices from the trombone quartets for the Ring cycle - even those three upper parts were all intended to be tenor/bass parts with a bass/contrabass part for 4th).

With the compartively huge trombones in use today, along with more resonant modern strings and much more present woodwinds than an 1875 Bayreuth orchestra would have, it doesn't make sense to me that some tuba players are so concerned about what instrument Richard Wagner intended his pieces to be played on.

The rest of the symphony has moved on...let's join them.

[J.c. Sherman]

The contrabass tubas were available to Wagner - he just didn't use it for that work.

You sound as though Bass tubas are meritless, and I would strongly disagree. I would do planets on Eb, myself, to balance the instrument he knew with the sonic force of the modern orchestra. It is a balance, don't get me wrong. But we cannot make performance decisions ignorant of historic information. There's never an excuse for that. Do what you and your conductor want. Every performance is ultimately an arrangement of the original work. What do you want to contribute to the arrangement?

For me, I don't think Meistersinger is a solo. It's a Soli, principally for the basses.

When the opera did Solome last season, I used my Yamaha F. This style of instrument, much closer to a british design, was certainly not what Strauss knew. But I knew my trombone section, my orchestra, my pit, and determined that this was how I would serve the music. I liked the Bass tuba balance, and the way it worked with the NY Bach 50 next to me.

Bass tubas are separate, and as distinguishable instruments as euphoniums. Think of it that way; would you use F tuba on the Tenor Tuba Part in the Planets? Why not? So why toss away the Bass tuba for a contra in the same work? Socially acceptable?

Just putting thoughts out there...

J.c.S.

[J.c. Sherman]

That bore size issue is not as germaine, I think, as one might think - bore is only one aspect of an instrument. German instruments were often dual bore instruments. That makes a difference. They often had very large bells, and some had relatively large bores compared to French and English instruments of the time. Modern Tubas range in bore from .562 up to .827, and they are all modern, and not always corolated to body and bell sizes, or even keys. Bore profile is more material than anything else, and the Germans inspired our modern American trombones more than anyone, I think...

J.c.S.

[jeopardymaster]

I'm not particularly hard over on this issue - I am always just delighted to get to play the thing!

However, one question for Neptune --- Why did you do it on an Eb? That trill probably lies worse on an Eb than just about any other horn - I mean, at least on a CC or BBb you can lip-trill it. I suspect it wasn't a matter of choice for you, but still I'm curious.[/quote]

[randy westmoreland]

You can do it as a lip trill on Eb (2 and 3), it sounds better for me with the valve trill.

Randy

[randy westmoreland]

I just remembered something. In a lesson Bobo told me you just can't move your fingers in your right hand fast enough for that trill. He said to reach around with the left hand, hold down the appropriate valves, then your right hand can move faster for the trill. I never could make the reach very well on my horns, but I thought it was interesting.

Randy

[Wyvern]

However, one question for Neptune --- Why did you do it on an Eb?

I only had a Besson 981 at the time!

You sound as though Bass tubas are meritless, and I would strongly disagree.

I think nothing of the sort - I only two weeks ago played Rienzi using my Eb.

This is all a matter of perception, with no right or wrong, but my view is that the reason Meistersinger sounds better on a big tuba is breath and richness of tone. You correctly say it is soli with the basses. Well in my opinion a contrabass tuba blends better with the basses than a bass tuba as the former has a broader tone.

There seems to be a common belief that the bigger the tuba, the louder the tuba. My experience is that is not the case. Bigger means broader and richer. A Bass tuba can be very loud and much cleaner and more cutting in tone, so may actually stand out more soloistic playing with the basses than a contrabass tuba.

[Mojo workin']

Trombones have changed little since their inception. In fact, the Bb standard, with larger bores for the "bass" instruments has been much the standard since the 18th century. There are exceptions, G Basses in England, occasional military use of the longer basses, some alto use, etc. But the only material change has been bell diameter.

This and your subsequent posts are filled with wonderfully convincing information, I'm sure most of it true. I'm just picturing trombonists(sackbuttists) in Susato's, Palestrina's, Praetorious' day standing next to a modern symphony orchestra's trombone section: there would be many differences between the instruments in sound, size, quality, etc.