Meistersinger

[Wyvern]

I have been thinking that just because F tuba have long been the standard orchestral tuba in Germany, does not mean that F necessarily provides the best tuba tone for the work - how do we know if Wagner would not have preferred a modern CC if that had been available in local orchestras at the time?

F tuba was the standard in Britain at the time that Elgar, Holst, Vaughan Williams and Walton were writing, but few would argue that say "The Planets" does not sound better with a bigger tuba.

I wonder if we tend to get too concerned with historical accuracy (I am as guilty as anyone!) - rather than what makes the music sound best to a modern audience whose aural perception must have changed out of all recognition in the last 100 years.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Trombones have changed little since their inception.

I mostly agree with you, except for one major design feature that is germane to this discussion...the bore size of modern trombones is much larger that their historical counterparts. If you look at the trombones Wagner was writing for in the late 19th century, they would be called pea-shooters today (at least the three upper voices from the trombone quartets for the Ring cycle - even those three upper parts were all intended to be tenor/bass parts with a bass/contrabass part for 4th).

With the compartively huge trombones in use today, along with more resonant modern strings and much more present woodwinds than an 1875 Bayreuth orchestra would have, it doesn't make sense to me that some tuba players are so concerned about what instrument Richard Wagner intended his pieces to be played on.

The rest of the symphony has moved on...let's join them.

[J.c. Sherman]

The contrabass tubas were available to Wagner - he just didn't use it for that work.

You sound as though Bass tubas are meritless, and I would strongly disagree. I would do planets on Eb, myself, to balance the instrument he knew with the sonic force of the modern orchestra. It is a balance, don't get me wrong. But we cannot make performance decisions ignorant of historic information. There's never an excuse for that. Do what you and your conductor want. Every performance is ultimately an arrangement of the original work. What do you want to contribute to the arrangement?

For me, I don't think Meistersinger is a solo. It's a Soli, principally for the basses.

When the opera did Solome last season, I used my Yamaha F. This style of instrument, much closer to a british design, was certainly not what Strauss knew. But I knew my trombone section, my orchestra, my pit, and determined that this was how I would serve the music. I liked the Bass tuba balance, and the way it worked with the NY Bach 50 next to me.

Bass tubas are separate, and as distinguishable instruments as euphoniums. Think of it that way; would you use F tuba on the Tenor Tuba Part in the Planets? Why not? So why toss away the Bass tuba for a contra in the same work? Socially acceptable?

Just putting thoughts out there...

J.c.S.

[J.c. Sherman]

That bore size issue is not as germaine, I think, as one might think - bore is only one aspect of an instrument. German instruments were often dual bore instruments. That makes a difference. They often had very large bells, and some had relatively large bores compared to French and English instruments of the time. Modern Tubas range in bore from .562 up to .827, and they are all modern, and not always corolated to body and bell sizes, or even keys. Bore profile is more material than anything else, and the Germans inspired our modern American trombones more than anyone, I think...

J.c.S.

[jeopardymaster]

I'm not particularly hard over on this issue - I am always just delighted to get to play the thing!

However, one question for Neptune --- Why did you do it on an Eb? That trill probably lies worse on an Eb than just about any other horn - I mean, at least on a CC or BBb you can lip-trill it. I suspect it wasn't a matter of choice for you, but still I'm curious.[/quote]

[randy westmoreland]

You can do it as a lip trill on Eb (2 and 3), it sounds better for me with the valve trill.

Randy

[randy westmoreland]

I just remembered something. In a lesson Bobo told me you just can't move your fingers in your right hand fast enough for that trill. He said to reach around with the left hand, hold down the appropriate valves, then your right hand can move faster for the trill. I never could make the reach very well on my horns, but I thought it was interesting.

Randy

[Wyvern]

However, one question for Neptune --- Why did you do it on an Eb?

I only had a Besson 981 at the time!

You sound as though Bass tubas are meritless, and I would strongly disagree.

I think nothing of the sort - I only two weeks ago played Rienzi using my Eb.

This is all a matter of perception, with no right or wrong, but my view is that the reason Meistersinger sounds better on a big tuba is breath and richness of tone. You correctly say it is soli with the basses. Well in my opinion a contrabass tuba blends better with the basses than a bass tuba as the former has a broader tone.

There seems to be a common belief that the bigger the tuba, the louder the tuba. My experience is that is not the case. Bigger means broader and richer. A Bass tuba can be very loud and much cleaner and more cutting in tone, so may actually stand out more soloistic playing with the basses than a contrabass tuba.

[Mojo workin']

Trombones have changed little since their inception. In fact, the Bb standard, with larger bores for the "bass" instruments has been much the standard since the 18th century. There are exceptions, G Basses in England, occasional military use of the longer basses, some alto use, etc. But the only material change has been bell diameter.

This and your subsequent posts are filled with wonderfully convincing information, I'm sure most of it true. I'm just picturing trombonists(sackbuttists) in Susato's, Palestrina's, Praetorious' day standing next to a modern symphony orchestra's trombone section: there would be many differences between the instruments in sound, size, quality, etc.

[J.c. Sherman]

A few points:

1) On the question of modern and old trombones side-by-side, I don't think you would hear anything particularly wrong - I know someone who used an F bass sackbut for the Bartok gliss (concerto for orch.) to good effect. It just isn't that different.

2) As to the use of a 150 year old instrument - in 5o years, I'm sure people will still treasure a York Tuba! And I've played spectacular American tubas from 150 years ago, with very modern intonation and performance charactaristics - though most wrapped OTS.

3) Good for you for using Eb on Rienzi - who played Serpent? In any case, I too strongly characterized the Bass statements - my point is that perhaps we shouldn't be as open to "choice" between bass tuba and contra, any more than tenor vs. bass tuba.

4) Oh, and the trill on Eb is no more difficult than any other key. I like using my F, pulling the 5th out to it's max, and trilling 12 +-5.

J.c.S.

[Wyvern]

3) Good for you for using Eb on Rienzi - who played Serpent?

The conductor wanted it played on contrabassoon (would not have been my choice!)

[Todd S. Malicoate]

As a former VERY serious double bass performer, I can tell you nobody in the double bass section is worried about the speed, unity, or cleanliness of that trill.

However, for an audition situation, I prefer a fast lip trill that doesn't slow down (or stop) into a nice, fast G-A mordent on the end. It's the END of the trill, IMHO, that will help you "stand out" from the rest in an audition.

[Wyvern]

The score simply calls for two (2) Tenor Tubas in Bb, two (2) Bass tubas in F and one (1) Kontra-Bass tuba....

Going by that two euphoniums, two F tubas and a CC/BBb tuba would be following the score, but not provide the tone we expect.

I wonder if it has ever has been played such

[jeopardymaster]

I agree with you Robert -- as fun as the soli section is, it's really important to have a "broad brush" for the big tutti sections. Next time for me it'll be the Neptune.

That wonderful big C major coda is ringing inside my head now.

[jonesbrass]

The score simply calls for two (2) Tenor Tubas in Bb, two (2) Bass tubas in F and one (1) Kontra-Bass tuba....

Going by that two euphoniums, two F tubas and a CC/BBb tuba would be following the score, but not provide the tone we expect.

I wonder if it has ever has been played such

Actually, if we're following the german tradition, the Kontrabass part would be on a BBb . . .

I like the bass tuba for parts marked bass tuba. Most of the time the Germans are very precise about it - it's just in their nature. However, if the person signing your check wants it played on something else, then do it.

[Billy M.]

However, one question for Neptune --- Why did you do it on an Eb?

I only had a Besson 981 at the time!

Is this kinda like when John Fletcher was asked why he didn't do the Vaughan Williams tuba on an F tuba his response was, "Because I don't have a bloody F."