Quick F Tuba Facts

[Nachdiddlyacho]

This is an old argument indeed.
I've found, and I think anyone here who has played a rotary F for awhile may agree, that the low register on a rotary is just as strong, powerful, and easy to play compared to the big piston bass tubas. It seems to take a bit longer to get used to, and admittedly if I allow myself to get out of shape on the F it's most noticeable in the low range. I added a besson 983 Eb to my arsenal a couple of years ago and had a great time playing a concerto on it, but after about 3 months of playing it I decided that I sounded much better on the PT-15 F. I know it can be enticing to pick up an 822 or 983 and play the low notes easily, but if you allow yourself a period of growth on a rotary F, you'll find them to be just as versatile. Having played both the Eb and F, most of my colleagues seem to prefer the rotary F in the orchestra. I think they feel it's easier to blend with.
A side note on the Firebird, this horn plays "smaller" than I'm used to. It has a great compact sound, but it's not as dark or expansive as the bigger rotary Fs. Have you considered the PT F horns, or the 181?
Just my 2 cents. Feel free to ignore me!

[dwaskew]

hi John,

Having recorded with the Yamaha, and now playing the Firebird fulltime, I thought I'd chime in. Many have found the Yamaha to be a great all purpose tuba--I really enjoyed playing on it, but never could get it to work in quintet--I guess I'm just not man enough. I've been playing the Firebird for about a year now--It's great for solo playing-like really fine, sweet sounds, and I can get it to "power up" when needed. No, it's not as dark as some may want, but that's not what I was looking for. I find, too, that it works not just ok, but great for me with our quintet. I have no problem balancing the group with it, and it's the first bass tuba I've been able to use effectively with our group. No significant pitch things, the lower register works fine (we do a great deal of jazz arrangements) and it is very responsive to what I need. Our quintet tours a fair amount, and was hoping to find an instrument that I could be working on solo stuff with, whilst on the road. The Firebird works great in that capacity. And, as an aside, I've flown several times with it, and use the regular case it came with, (with extra luggage straps around it) and the horn + case combo comes in at 46 lbs, so I have yet to pay any overage costs for it.

good luck with your search!

Dennis

[MikeMason]

Nach,I will strongly disagree with you concerning low register on most rotary f's.The low register is doable if you work at it enough,but will never be like an 822.I will also say that while low c is really great on an 822,low Bb is still a bit suspect.It's like they just moved the problem down a step.I finally got tired of feeling powerless in quintet with mine.I also had some flatness above the staff with mine.High register is not my strongest playing quality so,YMMV.I do really like the Firebird,but only spent around 30 min. with one last summer.It does have a low register.Not sure how it would do on jazz quintet arrangements,but Daskew's opinion is not to be summarily discarded.I love my B&S in and above the staff,but not below...

[Rick Denney]

What's the lower register like on the Firebird? Stuffy like most F tubas or clear and consistent like the 822?

Sound volume/size comparison.

The Yamaha has a rounder tone, with less tonal color and flexibility. If you like the tone it makes, it's perfect. If you don't, there's not much you can do about it.

When I've spent time with the Yamaha, it has felt more like a C tuba than an F. If you are playing a low C, that's great. If you are playing middle C, it's not. I have the smaller Yamaha, and it's that little bit brighter, while still with the easy low register. But it has limits in terms of volume and projection without going trombone-like.

I've spent less time with the Firebird but did evaluate its prototype. I thought the low C was pretty good. It was easier to play than most rotary F's. It's probably about the same as my pre-Parantucci B&S in that regard (which seems to me has an easier low C than the newer models with the bigger bore in the first and fifth valves). The tone is not quite as F-like as the B&S, but it is much more so than the 822.

I didn't play either one long enough to evaluate intonation or usability in a quintet.

I use F tuba for two purposes: One is for playing the "tuba" part in transcriptions of things like Berlioz, or the "Eb" part in music such as Lincolnshire Posy. For that purpose, the F has to project well enough to carry itself in a large concert band of amateurs who play too loudly, and it has to sound different enough from the section so that they sound like string basses. The little Yamaha didn't do it, and the big Yamaha might not have the tonal distinctiveness to add the bass tuba voice that is my purpose. There, I would prefer the Firebird, but I like my old B&S better.

The other purpose is for quintet. My quintet is just a bunch of guys like me and if I played anything with a lot of projection, I would have a hard time balancing. There, the little Yamaha is perfect. It can also blend with the trombone much better than the B&S, and very much better than the big Yamaha, for those times (such as Renaissance stuff) when I am trying to sound more like a bass trombone. The Firebird would definitely be my choice of the two you are considering for that application, but if it projects any better than my B&S, I would have a hard time controlling. (Dennis is, I'm sure, playing with much stronger quintet members, and that makes a difference.)

I'm basing all that on short periods with each of those instrument, though in the case of the Firebird, I did play its prototype in comparison with my B&S when I was deciding which to buy.

Both are worthy instruments but they are really different.

Rick "agreeing with Bloke but figuring John can separate the wheat from the chaff" Denney

[MartyNeilan]

Have you considered the Gronitz piston F tubas? May be the best of both worlds for you, in terms of both timbre and playability.

[jeopardymaster]

I've never played one, but I've heard plenty of good reports. Last Sunday I heard Jacob Cameron play his, and it was a fine, fine sound! I'm sure the Firebirds and Yamahas are OK too, but that was an eye-opener for me. I think that would be a good choice, so long as the specimen itself is good.

[Jobey Wilson]

Another vote for the Gronitz, here. Great sound, very flexible, large pallet, GREAT low register. My first F was a 1969 Alexander, then a 1980ish B&S Symphonie F (pre-Parentucci), now the Gronitz. I have always used F exclusively in quintet, and the Gronitz is by far the most versatile of the F's I've used. Subtle enough for the lightest playing (recently performed Strauss Serenade, contrabassoon part, and balanced beautifully with ww's & horns), but also has great power & projection for orchestra work, and a much more solid upper register than the Yama-bahama-mama 822.
I've played a few Firebirds and would have bought one in a heartbeat, had I not just tried the Gronitz PF-125. If you want a rotay, I'd go with a Firebird or try to find a pre-Parentucci B&S F...as others have said, much more open low register on these than other rotary F's. Good luck on your search! Enjoy! jobey