Valve oil for older valves.

Rick F · Post by **Rick F** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:59 am

euphmate wrote:Perchance my son is a chemical engineer in the petroleum industry. He suggests I don't risk inhaling microscopic particles of automative oil knowing it's composition and some of the additives included. The oil companies didn't figure folks would be adding it to wind instruments when they formulated the stuff for auto engines. Petroleum based valve oils ARE formulated for horns.

I would tend to agree with you (and your son). One reason I never tried STP for slides.

I think Hetman's #3 would be good for worn valves. It's synthetic and designed for valves with some wear.

From Joe Hetman's website: http://www.hetman.com/products.html

"HET3. CLASSIC PISTON - Synthetic protection for your classic instrument. Specially formulated oil helps to seal piston valves that exhibit greater than average clearance. Helps prevent valves from sticking. PN: H3-CP-60."

WWBW link for HET-3:

MikeS · Post by **MikeS** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:01 am

I use one part rotor oil to four parts Al Cass for my 1930's vintage horn. It works well for me.

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:30 am

euphomate wrote:
tubatooter1940 wrote:Bloke, as usual, offered the most practical solution.
I find 10 drops of 30 weight oil added to two ounces of ultrapure lamp oil gives me the best lube I have ever known for my 1940 King.
I, also, need to lube far less often. The horn can set up for several days after a grueling long gig and the valves are not sticky.
Perchance my son is a chemical engineer in the petroleum industry. He suggests I don't risk inhaling microscopic particles of automative oil knowing it's composition and some of the additives included. The oil companies didn't figure folks would be adding it to wind instruments when they formulated the stuff for auto engines. Petroleum based valve oils ARE formulated for horns.

I suppose it's never good to expose yourself to unknown elements. However, I wonder if the folks who work in the environments where they make petroelum products treat the oils has hazardous. I know that AFTER oils are exposed to the high temperatures in automotive applications, the waste oil is supposed to be disposed properly... but what about before?

It's true that there are warning labels on the bottles of lamp oil... indicating that ingestion and/or prolonged exposure can cause serious problems (including DEATH!)... But, whenever I see this on a label, I wonder just how much of this is simply CYA and how much is real.

At any rate, I AIN'T GONNA DRINK THE STUFF!

FreeBandMusic · Post by **FreeBandMusic** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:36 am

I've used Hetman's Classic Piston, which I read as "Thick oil for leaky old tubas". It works great on my Martin Eb, though I've learned not to use it on tighter horns like my euph.

John Thompson
Visit FreeBandMusic.biz for free music for concert band and brass quintet.

euphomate · Post by **euphomate** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 6:31 pm

As to the risk associated with inhaling automative oil particles (inc toxic additives) over time, that's a personal choice we all must make. Keep in mind that the valves are usually not that far from the chops. I passed on good advice because I felt obliged to. Me, I'm not going to risk my hobby adding to the toxic cocktail that Bloke rightly points out we are exposed to daily, and often can't avoid. I've gone the Hetman Classic route, I'd never heard of it before, and it's not available in my country. Thanks all for the advice on this product. Mouthpiece Express have come to the rescue again, I'll have it within a week.

SplatterTone · Post by **SplatterTone** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:11 pm

the waste oil is supposed to be disposed properly...

Which means: Pour it along the fence or anywhere else there are weeds that need to be killed.

TubaSailor · Post by **TubaSailor** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:31 pm

For Dan's question (and anyone else that might be interested): as a former oil tanker operator / officer - the short answer is YES! - Oil products of almost any kind are treated as toxic - some are extremely toxic! (Three - four inhalations & you're dead) Nothing you'll encounter in the normal world (read: ashore, outside a refinery) will be that bad, but I'd not bet on long-term exposures to anything you might regret in later years. (It's really hard to go back and fix)

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:40 am

Anyone have any experience with Webster's valve oil and slide lubricants? I have a customer who always brings his oils and lube with him... Webster's. The slide lube is actually a gel. It looks like very good stuff.

tofu · Post by **tofu** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 3:06 am

TubaSailor · Post by **TubaSailor** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:04 pm

I believe Dan's question was related to the industry practices regarding safe handling of oil / chemical products - Handled in massive quantities and varieties. The issues with most valve oils is
1) they aren't very volatile - if they were, they'd evaporate so quickly as to be useless as a lubricant. So, chances are pretty good that our exposure to airborne vapor/fumes is really minute.
2) they're "down-wind" - most of us don't inhale through the instrument (only on a really bad day)

3) quantities are extremely limited - 2 oz of hetman's lasts me months (rotary valves - different on pistons I know)

bottom line - yeah, they're probably toxic, and no, it probably doesn't matter unless you're going to drink some......or put it in a paper bag and huff

I believe the reason used oils are considered hazardous is due more to the suspended metal particulates than to the actual lube oil.

billeuph · Post by **billeuph** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:56 pm

Seriously, guys, toxicity is a big deal! At least to me. Unlike some of you, who actually have some talent and get paid to play, I'm totally devoid of talent and must pay myself. My usual rate is one beer for every 30 minutes of mind-numbing practice of dull band parts. After 2 hours of practicing, every liquid within reach has to be nontoxic since four beers is enough to somewhat blur my sense of what may or may not be beer. I use only organic extra virgin olive oil on my valves! A good grade of vegetable oil will also work, but it has a corny aftertaste and isn't as heart-friendly.

Happy April!

Bill Anderson

Rick F · Post by **Rick F** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:00 pm

Cheers!

SplatterTone · Post by **SplatterTone** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:39 pm

Notice the general work environment of your typical auto mechanic and where his/her face is most of the day; and the dark stuff so thoroughly ground into the skin that it never really comes out. I've not read anything about auto mechanics suffering from short lifespans.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:09 am

Yes, we're all going to die. Some, like me, probably sooner than later (genetic clotting condition). Just like that background voice off of Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon: I am not frightened of dying. Why should I be? There is no reason for it. We all have to go sometime.

Others are posting the equivalent of the later reply just before the last track on side 1: I never said I was frightened of dying.

The unknown is which one(s) and how much of these various environmental hazards talked about, from hydrocarbons to heavy metals to God knows what else, will actually be significant in foreshortening the life span on a sufficient exposure for a particular person?

I don't know. But for the benefit of trying to get my son raised to adulthood, I'm going to take reasonable precautions, avoid the obvious ones, and be careful about the rest, simply because nobody does know what the real effect is on a given person at a given time after exposure to a given quantum. The best we can say is that at some point the combination of time and concentration of exposure does turn toxic.

It's not perfect, but it's the best I know how to do, and I daresay it's what a lot of others do as well. And if I get sick or die in the meantime, so be it. I never said I was frightened of dying. And there is no dark side of the moon, really. As a matter of fact, it's all dark.

tubatooter1940 · Post by **tubatooter1940** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 4:44 am

" You can quit smokin' but you're still gonna die. Quit tokin' and cokin' but you're still gonna die. Eliminate everything fatty and fried and you get real healthy but you're still gonna die.
Quit booze and cooze but you're still gonna die. Wear Birkenstock shoes - youre still gonna die. You can cut out coffee and never get high but you're still gonna still gonna still gonna die.
... All the Reboks and Nikes and Adidas you buy, you can jog up to heaven but you're still gonna die.
You can stop gettin' tan but you're still gonna die. Eat a lot of oat bran but you're still gonna die. You can search for U.F.O.'s way up in the sky, they might fly you to Mars where you're still gonna die.
Put seatbelts in your car and you're still gonna die. Cut out nicotine and tar and you're still gonna die. You can have yourself frozen - suspended in time, when they do thaw you out, you're still gonna die.
You can have safe sex but you're still gonna die. Switch to Crest but you're still gonna die. You can eliminate stress, get a lot more rest - or get an aids test or wash with Zest, or move out West where it's sunny and dry. You'll live to be a hundred but you're still gonna die.
[chorus] You're (still gonna)3 die. You're (still gonna)3 die. So have some fun before you say bye bye, 'cause you're (still gonna)6 die."

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 12:15 pm

tubatooter1940 wrote:"[chorus] You're (still gonna)3 die. You're (still gonna)3 die. So have some fun before you say bye bye, 'cause you're (still gonna)6 die."

When I designed a new signal system in Las Vegas, I spent a lot of time out there. There are lots of used-up people there, old before their time, whose life is sitting in front of a slot machine hoping for the big break that would leave them even more confused about what to do than they are now.

They are smoking, drinking the free drinks, tipping the cocktail waitresses, and sleeping during the day. Instead of living, they are pinning their hopes on a future of good fortune that they have already lost the ability to enjoy. They aren't making themselves sick enough to die (at least not yet), but they are making themselves sick enough to feel sick.

Yes, they will die and so will I. But I learned from my several years of frequent visits out there that I wanted to live differently than they live.

I'm not sure whether that fits in this discussion. If the valves are so worn that one has to add much motor oil to the lamp oil, then they probably won't move well enough to be usable anyway. And if they aren't that worn, the amount of motor oil will be pretty small.

Personally, I use Hetmans Classic Piston in such cases because time is more precious to me than the few bucks it costs, and I'm happy to pay someone else to package it for my convenience. But there is an easy compromise: Go buy non-detergent "heavy-duty" 30-weight motor oil. It's the cheapest stuff on the shelf at Tractor Supply, and it will usually have a picture of farm equipment on the front of it. They still sell this for use in old tractors and such. It does not have the additives you guys are talking about, such as the anti-foaming agents, the viscosity modifiers, the anti-corrosion agents, and the detergents.

The lamp oil is something we've been smelling since the late 19th century, and in much less quantity now than then, as the average lifespan and health of the population has grown enormously.

Rick "seeking the balance between needless risk and needless worry" Denney

TubeNet

Valve oil for older valves.

Oil Toxicity

Toxicity issue - not applicable?

TOXICITY!