B&S, VMI

[billeuph]

It's well known that both B&S and VMI are owned by the same parent company and are made at the same factory in Markneukirchen in what used to be East Germany. I've wondered whether these are just two stencil names that they engrave on the same horns, but mostly I've wondered whether my VMI 3301 is a stencil version of a B&S model. Here is an interesting picture comparing the "VMI" 3301 (which is a B&S 3301 on the B&S web site) on the right and a B&S 4197, also known as a PT-20P, on the left.



Dimensions of these two are identical- length and bell diameter and bore (except for the PT-20P's 5th valve), so it seems pretty certain that the 3301 has the same bell and top and bottom bows as the PT-20 with the same valve section (less the 5th) with rearranged inner bows, longer valve slides, and longer lead pipe. More alike than different. I've always liked the PT-20 and PT-20p in the few chances I've had to play test them, so this is pretty interesting.

And why is a "VMI" 3301 in this country a "B&S" 3301 on their web site? Is this same model sold as a B&S in places other than the US?

Here is the j-a musik website showing both B&S and VMI links at the top-

http://www.ja-musik.com/seiten/index_en.php

The VMI tuba link on this page is broken, but the B&S tuba link works, and under the CC tuba link you can find the PT-20p, and the 3301 is under the BB tuba link. There is a VMI web site you can find-

http://www.vogtlaendische-musik.de/tuba/

But once there you see the B&S logo everywhere. Most of the same models are included here and the JA-Musik web site, but not all of the specs agree (I think that the bell diameter for the PT-20P in the VMI site is wrong- I know it is larger than on my old PT-3).

Does anyone know the history here? Were there once two companies that have merged, and now there are two labels for the same or similar instruments? Are instruments marketed outside the US with the VMI label, or just the better-known B&S label?

Bill Anderson

[tbn.al]

I've been wondering the same thing after noticing the similarities. It does appear that they have merely lengthened the slides and the lead pipe and added an inch to the bell diameter to produce the BBb from the CC. If the PT-20 plays as well as the VMI 3301 then it needs to be getting some serious consideration on this site. I don't think I've ever seen the PT-20 mentioned as a serious contender in the 4/4 CC market.

[awaters]

I play a pt 20 for everyday and small orchestra. it is a wonderful horn: no strange intonation issues, great sound, speaks throughout the entire range.
arnie waters

[MikeMason]

which brings up the question: So why the multi thousand dollar disparity in price???

[billeuph]

which brings up the question: So why the multi thousand dollar disparity in price???

Excellent question. I've asked the same question about my King 2341 and Conn 52/54/56J and never gotten a reasonable answer. In both the VMI/B&S and Conn/King cases, the BB flat and CC tubas are made in the same factory with the same tools by the same people but priced thousands of dollars apart. I used to play CC tuba but the price difference (and an available seat at a local Brass Band) convinced me to switch back to BB flat.

Bill Anderson

[ArnoldGottlieb]

I've been wondering the same thing after noticing the similarities. It does appear that they have merely lengthened the slides and the lead pipe and added an inch to the bell diameter to produce the BBb from the CC. If the PT-20 plays as well as the VMI 3301 then it needs to be getting some serious consideration on this site. I don't think I've ever seen the PT-20 mentioned as a serious contender in the 4/4 CC market.

I think the PT20P was around before it's BBb brother. Any reason the horn doesn't get mentioned as a serious contender have nothing to do with it's greatness as a horn. I own one of the first few that came out in the end of 99. I've played more gigs on it than I can count. I have it on the road this year and it's still amazing. Some of the reasons many people don't talk about in my opinion are:
1)There's only one place to get one in the USA and they price them as they please.
2)There's seems to be some B&S prejudice for older models, as if the majority of people here have even seen an older model much less played one.
3)There are no "spokesmodels" for them here in the USA. Jon Sass plays the crap out of one, I know Mr. Tucci used one in the Opera in Munich.
4)Some of us have decided that practicing the tuba is better for our playing than debating with high school students about equipment choices.

It's a real horn, I played mine next to a thor a few weeks ago. The thor plays easier but the PT20 has better valves, the thor really slots right in tune but the product that comes out of the bell of my PT20 makes me happier than me or the thor's owner playing the thor.
Not that I wouldn't mind owning a thor, but I wouldn't get rid of my horn to get one.
Flame away, I'll be reading it in a few days...........
Peace.
ASG

[Rick Denney]

which brings up the question: So why the multi thousand dollar disparity in price???

Excellent question. I've asked the same question about my King 2341 and Conn 52/54/56J and never gotten a reasonable answer.

Bill, I've addressed this a number of times. The reason is simple: Conn 5xJ buyers are willing to pay MUCH more than King 2341 buyers. Thus, Conn-Selmer will put more finish work into it, add a fifth valve, and so on, while the 2341 often has assembly problems, ill-fitting valves, four valves, and finish faults. The market determines an acceptable price point, and the manufacturer either gilds the lily (or their profits), or cuts costs as necessary, to meet that price point.

B&S is more famous than VMI, and it also has the Parantucci brand connection. That commands a higher price. You'll pay more for a PT-2P than for an identical F. Schmidt 3301. Maybe the B&S-labeled models have better finish work, but I doubt it. Why would people spend more for a PT-2P than a 3301? Because it says "B&S" on it. Any manufacturer that didn't take advantage of that willingness to pay more is 1.) undercutting their high-reputation brand, 2.) opening themselves up to more demand than they can supply at the premium-brand quality and service model, 3.) robbing their stockholders of rightful profits (after all, high-value brands require a long-term investment and deserve as much reward as the market will bear), and 4.) undercutting their premium-brand dealers. In the business world, it would just be bad business, and it's the sort of thing that gets people fired.

Someone like Thein can charge their outrageous prices just because only a handful of people will pay it and that's all the tubas they can make in any case.

Rick "products are priced to meet sales models, and not made at all (or not for long) if costs exceed those prices" Denney