Apple Vs. PC...

[Richardrichard9]

My Windows Vista computer has been annoying me lately, not letting me download anything, many graphics errors and such. So I am thinking about buying my own computer (instead of using the family computer. Which Operating System is better.

[lgb&dtuba]

This is like asking what mouthpiece is best.

Let the games begin.

[JCalkin]

I recently made the switch from Windoze Vista Basic to Ubuntu (Linux).

My machine (bought new 1 1/2 years ago) is just WAY too slow for Vista but Ubuntu runs like a dream and is faster by a factor of (at least) 5.

Plus, Ubuntu uses freeware developed in the online community so all the software is FREE.

It came bundled with Open Office, which functions like a faster MS Office and can save in .doc, .xls and all other proprietary standard office document formats, so compatibility with the rest of the Mac & PC planet is a nonissue.

Together with GIMP image software, Ubuntu readily addresses all my software needs with one GLARING omission:

The one major drawback that I can see (in our little community) is there is no real Finale/Sibelius/etc equivalent yet, so your choices if you need notation software are to either
-have a second machine (I do) with which to do music stuff
or
-set up a partition that allows you to boot into Windows so you can keep your PC-only programs.

It could be that there is a Linux-based program that would function in this capacity and I, as a new convert, just haven't encountered it yet. If any of you on the TNFJ have any ideas, I'd love to try them out.

[Rick Denney]

I bought a cheapie PC with Vista for my ham radio shack. A PC in that situation needs to be completely controllable by the owner, and it needs to let software get excellent access to the hardware. Most ham radio devices run on serial ports, with some on USB. And much of the software is written by hobbyists.

Vista was unstable, slow, and it made most of the programs I wanted to use break. And the mothering that it does, assuming the owner is a virus-prone moron, was utterly incompatible with a computer in an experimental environment.

So, last week, I bought a surplus IBM desktop (much cheaper) that's probably six years old, with a new hard disk and XP Pro. Plugged some more memory into it, added a USB-2 driver card, and a flat panel. Everything works again.

That leaves me the question of what to do with the Vista box. The temptation to convert it to Linux is almost overwhelming. If MS's new OS's are going to be written for corporate IT goons rather than users, then I'm going to have to explore options.

But Apple is NOT the answer for me. I oppose proprietary hardware architectures and I like Steve Jobs even less than Bill Gates.

Rick "whose company will NOT buy a Vista computer" Denney

[SplatterTone]

[JCalkin]

Vista was unstable, slow, and it made most of the programs I wanted to use break. And the mothering that it does, assuming the owner is a virus-prone moron, was utterly incompatible with a computer in an experimental environment.

Indeed. Vista was so resource intensive on my laptop that I literally had to plan my computer use almost 20 minutes in advance to allow my computer to boot itself up and load all the crap programs it came preinstalled with. And if it decided it wanted to run its virus checking software, each keystroke I made was delayed AT LEAST five seconds.

Bear in mind that I didn't buy Vista separately; it came preinstalled on my machine as though it were the right choice. I would've preferred a different OS, but I needed a computer immediately and Office Depot had a STUPID GOOD deal on them ($250 NEW after rebates, including a printer).

That leaves me the question of what to do with the Vista box. The temptation to convert it to Linux is almost overwhelming.

Do it, Rick. You won't look back. If nothing else, you can go to Ubuntu.com (if that's your Linux OS of choice) and download the OS, which comes as a CD disc image. Once you burn the disc image onto a CD, you can boot from the disc to try Ubuntu out without even installing it. It won't have 100% speed or functionality, but it'll be enough to give you an idea.

My initial impression is that in a Linux environment you can have a huge degree of control over your machine (certainly compared to Windows) if you want to learn the language. If you don't, the GUI that comes along with Ubuntu makes it easy right out of the box (assuming there were a box).

I hate to sound like a salesman, but I think Ubuntu literally gave me extra years' worth of use from my "slow" computer. In the end, it'll save me not only money, but a lot of headaches.

[DonShirer]

As someone who has used all three OS in both home and university environments, there is no easy answer to this question.

If you like getting into the guts of your system, Unix is the most versatile, but it comes with a steep learning curve and many of the most popular applications do not have a Unix port. You will also have to spend much more time maintaining Unix whereas Windows and Mac OS are mostly plug and play.

Windows Vista is the pits, but earlier versions are adequate. Most computer gamers prefer it, but you will have to put up with its foibles (which I don't have time to go into here), and be diligent in eradicating viri (?) and installing safety options.

The Mac OS is clearly the easiest (and most fun) to use (my machinophobic DW has no problems with it) and more and more apps run natively on the newer Intel based Macs. It is the platform of choice for graphics work, TV or movie editing, and I use it routinely for music editing and composing. With an Intel Mac you can run Windows programs with little fuss, so the old saw about Windows machines having the widest choice of programs is no longer applicable.

While Bill and Steve are both probably nice guys at heart (nice guys out to control the universe, that is) try to make your decision without being swayed by the hype their spin doctors and detractors put out. You might consider monitoring the postings on Windows, Mac or Unix user forums to get an idea what users think and what problems routinely occur.

[The Jackson]

The first thing I did when I got my Vista desktop (eMachine ) was dig through and delete or disable every crap program that tried to run at startup. I think that was a very good move on my part and I haven't experienced really bad screw-ups since I got it in June 07.

I feel, though, like I really have an idea for suspicious stuff. I've only had to deal with a virus once on this machine, and that's because I was the idiot. It took me only about an hour to find the little .dll and delete it.

[k001k47]

PC;
If you know how to use a computer properly.

[The Big Ben]

The latest Macintoshes (those which will run varieties of OSX) are running Unix of the BSD variety with Apple's front end called "Aqua".

Linux can come in many varieties; some pretty easy to use and others bleeding-edge geeky. I have used Debian Linux and found it pretty easy to understand. Arguments about the 'best Linux' fill newsgroups, blogs and message boards.

I've never used Vista but have had to use XP for a variety of things and found I could live with it. I've used XP with medium and low end Intel machines.

I've always used Macintosh as my main computer. I made my basic decision back in 1987 and haven't seen anything that I like better. Years ago, I used Unix for other things that I did and, when Apple put the two together with Darwin and OSX, I was a happy boy. I also have used all of the varieties of MS-DOS and Windows so I think I have a pretty full view of all of the available consumer operating systems. I'm planning on continuing to use OSX on my next computer (to be purchased in the next six months) and am also planning on running XP on it also for one particular piece of software I want to use that only runs on XP and I don't have the skill (or time) to port it or make my own similar version which runs on OSX. (It's a ham radio remote control program.)

I use lots of open source software with OSX and, if I was starting completely from scratch with the info on operating systems I have in my head right now, I would probably still use OSX on Apple hardware. If I couldn't afford Apple hardware or other high-end hardware , I'd use Linux on cheap hardware and deal with the problems of cheap hardware. (Apple hardware is no more expensive than high-end hardware from other manufacturers.)

So, there ya go. An expert on nothing with opinions on everything...

[tubafatness]

The best thing I've heard about how to choose:
Someone who was buying a new laptop, and chose Windows, said he would tape a $500 bill to the cover of his laptop. When his fellow students, (who mostly all used a Mac laptop,) would ask what the bill was he for, he said he would tell them, "That's the money I saved by buying a Windows laptop that does the same thing that your laptop does."

Truthfully, though, each system has its uses. I use a Windows equipped Dell for just about everything, as that's the system I grew up with, and it makes the most sense to me. That being said, I am considering buying a cheap, $300-$400 Apple laptop off of ebay, to run ProTools, (or Digital Performer, which ever one is the easiest to find a free copy of!) Apple audio editing programs are, for the most part, just better than Windows based programs, (like Cubase, the program I run right now.)

So, buy whichever one feels the most comfortable to you. If you've used Windows for a while now, a Windows OS would probably feel the most comfortable to you.

[willbrett]

I've gotta jump in here and do some Vista bashing myself. I recently snagged a deal on a laptop from Circuit City that came preloaded with Vista. I do auto paint work, and needed this computer to run my paint formula software. Unfortunately, my paint software is is COMPLETELY incompatible with Vista, so I had basically bought a useless computer.

No problem, I thought... I'll just reformat and load this old copy of Windows XP Pro that I've got laying here in my office. Problem is, once HP switched over to Vista, they stopped providing the device drivers that work with XP! I couldn't get my video working properly, ethernet card was dead, internal wi-fi card disabled, no sound... Nothing worked but the cd rom.

It took me over a week of scouring all sorts of computer forums to finally locate drivers that would work for everything. (well, I got everything but the ethernet card to work, but with the wi-fi working, I don't need to plug it directly in). I finally ended up with a nice, fast, stable new laptop running XP.

Fun times, let me tell you!

-Brett

[Rick Denney]

It took me over a week of scouring all sorts of computer forums to finally locate drivers that would work for everything.

I seriously wanted to revert the Vista box back to XP, but was afraid of orphaning all the hardware on the machine, or having to go to great lengths to find drivers that would work. Gateway (who makes eMachines) has not offered a reversion path, though many of the big companies are doing that.

That might still be a challenge if I load Linux on it.

In the ham shack, the software I use for a software-controlled communications receiver will run on Vista (in XP compatibility mode), but it blue-screens the machine from time to time.

I found a Vista driver for an expensive USB-based four-port RS-232 box, and it worked. But the contest logging software I use (N1MM), though some have run it on Vista machines, would not talk to my radio the way it's supposed to. And after running for ten minutes or so, it would blast video memory which would spray bits of the desktop to the wrong parts of the screen, making it impossible to reach the restart command. And Vista doesn't have a keyboard path to a shutdown that I could find (XP does--"Start", up-arrow, enter, enter). If you can't control the mouse or read the screen, you're left with the Big Red Switch. And on that box, that means unplugging it from the wall.

N1MM is free software--I can't call them up and complain that it doesn't work on my moron of a machine.

Then, there were attempts at running rig control and dx logging software that would interface with my receiver control software. There are a few (dxlab being the one that offered the best hope), but they all broke on Vista when trying to communicate with my radio, and they all eventually brought the machine down.

Then there was the issue of having to say "Yes, I really, really, really do want to do that" 1,483,492 times for each program I wanted to install. I finally figure out how to turn that crap off, and now it just scolds me for being unsafe when it boots up. Do I need to pay money for a computer that scolds me because I want it out of my way? Huh? If I wanted a parent instead of a computer, I would have bought an Apple. I think it was IT security geeks who designed this OS, not users.

Last weekend, I spent half a day at a hamfest in Baltimore, and saw these IBM-branded desktop boxes. They had new (but small--40G--hard disks), CD writer/DVD players, a dual-monitor video card, USB (though 1.1), a floppy disk drive (a rare find these days), TWO (count 'em!) serial ports, a network port, an easy-to-open case, and a decent keyboard. They were loaded with XP-Pro, and had 2GHz P4's in them. I spent ten minutes loading my ham shack software on it, and everything worked perfectly, first time. $125, with 1.25 GB RAM, and the only scolding was when I turned off automatic update (I live on a dialup). I wish I had bought two. Now, I need to back that sucker up (there are no disks with this guy, though the XP authentication sticker is on the box).

By the way, I've NEVER had a virus on any of my machines, even without a software parent scolding me.

If Vista were the only option, I would look seriously at Apple. I have used Microsoft all these years because, unlike Apple, it didn't get in my way when I wanted to do something a low level. Vista has taken away the only advantage MS ever had, and given up the reputation for stability that XP had (finally) earned.

I don't know what I'm going to recommend for my customers.

Rick "machine owner, not machine slave" Denney

[The Jackson]

Unfortunately, my paint software is is COMPLETELY incompatible with Vista

You even tried compatability mode?

[willbrett]

The Jackson Wrote:

You even tried compatability mode?

There was an issue with the software I was trying to use. It would lock up right in the middle of installation EVERY time. I contacted the software company, and they claimed to be working on a new version that would run on Vista. It's been almost 4 months, and there's still no new version.

-Brett

[Carroll]

I've coded in assembly language on a Wang RPN calculator, FORTRAN on a UNIVAC (with punch cards) BASIC on a RS Model 4 , Atari, and Commodore 64, COBOL and PASCAL on numerous IBM boxes. I can code whatever I need to but I choose not to. I use a Mac now. I have my computer start up at 4 a.m., download my e-mail, sort through the junk, and then have my mail waiting for me when I check it at 6. I do a bunch of Finale work, have my machine process the work, start printing and turn itself off... while I go to bed. I sometimes have repetitive tasks like: open a file, transpose to concert E flat, change the name of the tune, print the file, save as another file name. I can set up my Mac to watch me... do it once... and then have it apply these actions to all selected files.

But please, do not let me influence your choice. The more people who use these machines... the more attractive a target for virus writers.

[MaryAnn]

I'd sure like to know how you figured out how to do all that...I bought an iMac three years ago on the urging of friends, after 20 years at work on a PC. ... everything that is intuitive for me, either does nothing or does something completely bass-ackwards on the Mac. For example, alt-W goes between windows in a standard PC program; the same hand motion on the Mac *closes* the program. Many things like this; I'll know how to do it on a PC, and simply cannot find out how to do something that should be very, very simple, on the Mac, because of different terminology that is used to talk about it (like back when I had to switch from Lotus to Excel; same problem.) I basically gave up trying to get any good at using the Mac, and although it is my home computer, I continue to stumble along and avoid using it unless I have to. The only benefit I can see at this point in time is lack of viruses from going online.

That said, there is simply no way I would buy a home computer with Vista on it; I'd rather deal with the Mac. My dear brother now works for Microsoft and goes apoplectic when I talk about Vista. At work we are on XP Pro, and will stay there until something else that is stable comes along.

MA

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Mac computers may look cooler but windows beats all. It was first before mac and better. It actually has history behind it.

Troll? Or just trying to get the post count up?

You decide...

[The Big Ben]

I'd sure like to know how you figured out how to do all that...I bought an iMac three years ago on the urging of friends, after 20 years at work on a PC. ... everything that is intuitive for me, either does nothing or does something completely bass-ackwards on the Mac. For example, alt-W goes between windows in a standard PC program; the same hand motion on the Mac *closes* the program. Many things like this; I'll know how to do it on a PC, and simply cannot find out how to do something that should be very, very simple, on the Mac, because of different terminology that is used to talk about it (like back when I had to switch from Lotus to Excel; same problem.) I basically gave up trying to get any good at using the Mac, and although it is my home computer, I continue to stumble along and avoid using it unless I have to. The only benefit I can see at this point in time is lack of viruses from going online.

Sounds like you should have followed your experience and stayed with something familiar. And it's also too bad you can't just load up XP like on one of the Macs with Intel processors.

I use a limited number of keyboard commands for what I do and they are all the same on the two platforms. I don't do anything fancy with word processing or spreadsheets. Are the keyboard equivelents the same on, say, Excel, on both platforms?