double buzzing and lip injuries

[pgiampi1]

Sometimes when I get tired, I find myself losing my center and double buzzing, but only on two specific pitches: F# and G in the middle of the bass clef (I am a euphonium player).

I've been working a lot on the strength of my embouchure, and while it doesn't feel like I'm overdoing things, often I pick up my horn and feel a bit worn out somewhat quickly. I teach middle school and as a result I don't get to focus a lot of my practicing time into big chunks, but I try not to overdo it in terms of volume, range, etc.

My question is this: is there a point where double buzzing becomes less a sign of fatigue and more a sign of potential lip/muscle damage?

Also, I've always heard this but think it might be a myth: if you are playing for a bit, you stop, and you feel your lips tingling, I've heard people say that it means that you have had some of your muscles/nerves/something damaged or destroyed. Can't be true, right?

[NDSPTuba]

I really don't think so. I've also felt that tingle was a sign of a good practice session, as long as there is no pain associated with it. Double buzz usually ( for me ) is the result of too much pressure.

[Geotuba]

I have found recently that double buzzing for me most often is the result of inadequate breath support from the intercostal muscles. When it happens I have to think more consciously about those muscles than usual in order to fix it. But then I play a BAT not a Euph so may be different.

I'll probably have a different opinion about the cause next week though

[Roger Lewis]

Lip dominance is a big part of this. Also I would add to compliment this that when the lips start to fight each other, and one (preferably the lower) is not set quite firm enough, then the lower lip, (which is the drum head and the upper the drumsticks), begins to form a "counter sine wave" (yes the lip actually forms a sine wave inside the mouthpiece) and will oscillate at 1/2 the speed of the upper lip.

This juxtaposition of the two sine waves of different frequencies then causes the dreaded double buzz. The cure? Simple. Add a slight bit more firmness to the lower lip so that the second sine wave cannot form. This should solve the problem.

If you are trying to vibrate both lips at the same time this would most likel be the primary cause of the firmness mis-match between the two lips.

Just supplementing Scooby Tuba.

Peace.
Roger

[pgiampi1]

I had never heard about lip dominance creating double buzzing, but it makes total sense. When I was fooling with this today (on the two pitches I experience double buzzing with, F# and G), I checked with a tuner and noticed that I played both pitches sharp. As I brought the pitch down, the double buzz set in.

I should probably mention that I am not having this problem more than once every 1-3 months, but it's something that I haven't shaken from my playing at this point. I had a rehearsal this evening - two hours of John Williams transcriptions - and found that the double buzzing did not return.

[k001k47]

I've never had a double buzz problem.
But occasionally, when playing in the lower ranges, if I hit a note loud enough, it hurts my lips alot... no double buzz... no bad intonation... no nothing; just that brief lip pain. Am I killing my chops when this happens?

[Stefan Kac]

The tingling is the feeling of regaining circulation in the lips after it has been cut off by mouthpiece pressure. Right?

[Roger Lewis]

you are correct. It is probably from using a bit too much mouthpiece pressure. If you use a Laskey mouthpiece, you need to learn to "back away" from it a bit with the pressure - his rim is designed to be uncomfortable if too much pressure is used. In general, with the trend toward "cushion" or wide rims, we all may tend toward using more pressure than is needed - and not realize it because the rim doesn't give us enough feedback.

Just a random thought.
Roger

[pgiampi1]

Cool, that all makes sense too. I don't know what bonehead tried to convince me that the tingling was a sign that damage had been done. Usually I only experience it when I play something over and over without realizing how much repetition I've done, or if I do something I haven't done in a long time, like a lot of buzzing on the mouthpiece.

[iiipopes]

It's your body's way of telling you to back off and take a break. It's caused by the same thing as when your hand or foot "goes to sleep," and starts tingling if you've had it in a confined or cramped position. You've used up all the oxygen in the blood in that area, and you need to let the your circulation refresh everything.

[Dean E]

. . . . double buzzing . . . .I've been working a lot on the strength of my embouchure . . . .

I've been reading Arnold Jacobs. I understand him to say that we need to practice having the central portions of the lips remain in a flat plane--that skill avoids double buzzing.

Practice this skill during mouthpiece buzzing.

Do not be consumed with the embouchure while performing musically; the body will apply the skills naturally.

Dean "Too lazy today to find AJ's book and quote it" E

[tubacrow]

I have found recently that double buzzing for me most often is the result of inadequate breath support from the intercostal muscles. When it happens I have to think more consciously about those muscles than usual in order to fix it. But then I play a BAT not a Euph so may be different.

I'll probably have a different opinion about the cause next week though

While intercostal muscles play a role in breathing, but they are not alone and work in balance with several othe voluntary and involuntary muscle groups. The major muscle used in breathing is the Thoracic Diaphragm. The Intercostals and Abdominals are voluntary muscle that can be controlled and do play a role in proper breathing. the Boyle's law also plays a role in breathing. the preasure seeks balance between inner and outer air pressures. There are so many physical actions that occur in a simple breath that I sometimes have to think back to what Arnold Jacobs said (I will Parphrase because I do not have the CD near me at this moment)

I do not think of all the muscles and actions involved in sitting, I sit.
(sorry if I have misquoted in my paraphrasing, but I think the point comes through)