Model Number on King Tuba

Louis · Post by **Louis** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:41 am

I have a musician friend who is selling a King tuba. He is not a tuba player - I'm not sure why or how he has a tuba to sell, but he is a musician and conductor so he's collected some stuff over the years. I'm going to take a look at it (I'm not a tuba player either, but I play euphonium, so I'm a little closer I guess) and maybe help him sell it.

It's a four-valve tuba. And it is a King. That's all I know about it. My question is: When I look at it, where should I look for a model number on it? I suppose I should look for a serial number too...

Thanks,
Louis

Lew · Post by **Lew** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:26 am

The serial number will help determine its age, but I don't think that King put their model numbers on their tubas in the past. If it front action piston valves, and a detachable bell it's either a model 1241 or 2341 depending on the age.

Louis · Post by **Louis** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 12:06 am

Lew wrote:The serial number will help determine its age, but I don't think that King put their model numbers on their tubas in the past. If it front action piston valves, and a detachable bell it's either a model 1241 or 2341 depending on the age.

I got my hands on this tonight. You are right - it has a detachable bell and four front-action pistons.

Here's a link to a picture of it someone put up on yahoo for me:
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/toomuchin ... m=bc20.jpg

The serial number (around 700K) places the manufacture date between 1975 and 1980. It has a 21-1/2" bell and stands about 42" tall. It's in two hard cases.

Is it one of the model numbers you suspected?

Thanks,
Louis

Lew · Post by **Lew** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 11:10 am

Based on the photos I would agree with it being a 2341, although I thought that the 1241 was the one with the 22" bell and when they changed the model number they went to the smaller bell. There wasn't that much difference between them, although there are some who will claim that the 1241 was the better playing version.

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 1:01 pm

Lew wrote:Based on the photos I would agree with it being a 2341, although I thought that the 1241 was the one with the 22" bell and when they changed the model number they went to the smaller bell. There wasn't that much difference between them, although there are some who will claim that the 1241 was the better playing version.

My experience would confirm that the 1241 is better, but as with most experience it is based on limiting sampling.

I can't tell by looking at the photo which this one might be. As I recall, the 1241 has a fixed top crook on the first-valve branch and a folded over top crook on the third-valve branch. The 2341 has a slide at the top of the first and third-valve branches.

Either way, it appears to be in good shape.

Rick "who has played a couple of really wonderful 1241's" Denney

Normal · Post by **Normal** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 3:31 pm

Rick Denney wrote:

the 1241 has a fixed top crook on the first-valve branch and a folded over top crook on the third-valve branch.

I have a 1241 and it looks just like Rick described. By the serial number, this tuba appears to be a 2341. I can't tell from the picture though. Its a tough angle to see the 1st and 3rd valve tubing.

This tuba is in better shape than most I've seen. Maybe it didn't do school time.

Louis · Post by **Louis** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 5:36 pm

Normal wrote:Rick Denney wrote:
the 1241 has a fixed top crook on the first-valve branch and a folded over top crook on the third-valve branch.
I have a 1241 and it looks just like Rick described. By the serial number, this tuba appears to be a 2341. I can't tell from the picture though. Its a tough angle to see the 1st and 3rd valve tubing.

This tuba is in better shape than most I've seen. Maybe it didn't do school time.

Thanks for all of the info. I had a few pictures added to the album:
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/toomuchin ... 9f&.src=ph

That might give you a better look at the things you're talking about.

Also, for some reason the color is much fainter in the new photos... In person, it looks much more like the tint in the first photo.

Thanks again.

Louis

P.S. No, no school time. Very little time of any type, in fact. Belongs to a director of various bands - all adult groups - some community stuff, contract/union gigs, etc. Not a tuba player himself... Very light use.

Lew · Post by **Lew** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 5:42 pm

Yep, 2341. Good tuba, although I like the newer, one piece ones better. Not necessarily because they are one piece, but because they play better than the 2 piece ones for me, and I have owned both. I would put its value at around $2500 +/- a few hundred $$ in the condition shown.

Matt G · Post by **Matt G** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 5:50 pm

It's a 2341. It doesn't look that old either.

If you want real validation there is a shop in Woodbridge, where you are at (I'm suprised no one noticed/mentioned this) that would both help you correctly identify this horn and help your friend sell it through the consignment system:
http://www.dillonmusic.com

The lacquer is in in good shape but some of the latter horns before the King 2341 was "updated " have a much clearer lacquer resulting in a very yellow tint. However, that old gold tint lacquer was super hard and stays in very good shape.

That bell is fairly rare as the 17" and 19" bells were more popular. I remember a fellow in Orlando, Fl that played a king 2341 exclusively and had a 15", 17", 19" and 21" bell for a few of the bodies. I believe for a while that one could contact King and they could still spin a 21" bell well into the 2341 days.

Go to Dillon's as they can give the horn a nice cleaning and present it ina well traveled showroom and put it on the internet for you. I have sold a few horns through them with good success.

Louis · Post by **Louis** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 6:19 pm

Matthew Gilchrest wrote:It's a 2341. It doesn't look that old either.

If you want real validation there is a shop in Woodbridge, where you are at (I'm suprised no one noticed/mentioned this) that would both help you correctly identify this horn and help your friend sell it through the consignment system:
http://www.dillonmusic.com

The lacquer is in in good shape but some of the latter horns before the King 2341 was "updated " have a much clearer lacquer resulting in a very yellow tint. However, that old gold tint lacquer was super hard and stays in very good shape.

That bell is fairly rare as the 17" and 19" bells were more popular. I remember a fellow in Orlando, Fl that played a king 2341 exclusively and had a 15", 17", 19" and 21" bell for a few of the bodies. I believe for a while that one could contact King and they could still spin a 21" bell well into the 2341 days.

Go to Dillon's as they can give the horn a nice cleaning and present it ina well traveled showroom and put it on the internet for you. I have sold a few horns through them with good success.

Believe me, I'm well acquainted with Dillon's. GREAT shop. I play euphonium and trombone and I live 3 minutes from Dillon's. That's kind of like being a Yankees fan and living next to Yankee Stadium.

I think my friend had this horn there on consignment for a while and it didn't move (this was before I was involved at all in trying to help him with it). I thought about going there - I go there for lots of stuff and have done much business there. My experience there is all good. I think I'd rather just give this one a whirl here though. This forum is a pretty neat place.

I think I've gathered enough info. to put it up for sale. So I guess the thing to do is move over to the "For Sale" section. I'll post it up there a little later.

Thanks again for all the info. You folks know your stuff!

Louis

Normal · Post by **Normal** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 9:13 pm

I'm not sure the tuba in question is a 2341. The picture above is labeled as a King 2341 for sale at Dillon. The 3rd valve tubing is routed totally different than the 3rd valve tubing on the pictures Louis posted. Isn't the main difference between a 1241 and a 2341 the routing of the 1st and 3rd valves tubes? My older (about 15 years older) 1241 looks just like the pictures Louis posted, only mine has the expected number of dents and scratches.

Regardless of the exact model looks like your friend has a good one.

Teubonium · Post by **Teubonium** » Wed Sep 29, 2004 12:36 pm

I agree with Norm. My 1240 (3 valve) has third valve tubing that looks just like that in the pictures Louis posted. I thought one of the improvements on the 2340/41 over the 1240/41 was to get rid of that water trap on the third valve tubing.

Therefore I believe Norms picture is a 2341, Louis has a 1241.

Teubonium · Post by **Teubonium** » Wed Sep 29, 2004 12:41 pm

I agree with Norm. My 1240 (3 valve) has third valve tubing that looks just like that in the pictures Louis posted. I thought one of the improvements on the 2340/41 over the 1240/41 was to get rid of that water trap on the third valve tubing.

Therefore I believe Norms picture is a 2341, Louis has a 1241.

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Wed Sep 29, 2004 1:54 pm

Louis wrote: Thanks for all of the info. I had a few pictures added to the album:
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/toomuchin ... 9f&.src=ph

It sure looks like a 1241 to me, and in that sort of condition, I would expect it to do about as well as any used detachable-bell King.

Rick "who didn't research the serial number, but who thinks the valve branches predate the 2341" Denney

Matt G · Post by **Matt G** » Wed Sep 29, 2004 2:11 pm

I looked at this again...

I still think it is a 2341, but only because of the tuning slide. The 1241 tuning slide was much narrower from what I remember. I think that the early 2341's still had a fixed first valve slide. The switch to a movable slide might have come with some wrap updates?

Anyhow, the horn will fetch the estimates you have received. I have always thought of these horns to be the best American-made 4/4 BBb tuba, and still are to date.

Louis · Post by **Louis** » Wed Sep 29, 2004 5:31 pm

Thanks again for all of the info.... I wonder why they weren't stamping model numbers on the horns anywhere. I looked all over the thing (no small task - what an enormous instrument

)... no model. I had a King Duo Gravis bass trombone from the same era as my friend's tuba - had that same deep gold-ish tint to the lacquer - and it had the model name "Duo Gravis" engraved right on the bell. All the King trombones were like that - 2B Liberty, 3B Concert, etc.

Louis

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Wed Sep 29, 2004 6:51 pm

Louis wrote:- had that same deep gold-ish tint to the lacquer

This is the lacquer that repair folks really love....