$50 & up

[Chuck(G)]

Heck, it may not matter in the long run. I've been seeing more and more of this kind of speculation:

http://www.morganstanley.com/GEFdata/di ... ml#anchor0

You might want to add Pete Peterson's "Running on Empty" to your list of interesting books to read:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... 6?v=glance

[Matt G]

Hummers aren't diesels anymore? That sucks. Defeats the whole purpose of having a machine like that.

Doc

The H1 is still a diesel. It is still a Hummer. It still cost $80K plus.

The H2 is the new p.o.s. from GM. It is a Yukon/Suburban chassis under a bunch of square sheet metal. It costs around $50K.

Funny enough, the H1 does get better mileage than the H2. The H2 fits in parking spots a little better and accelerates much better than the H1. Also, because the H1 is a military vehicle. Because of that and the way it is built, it is not as "pimp-able" as the H2. The H2 can take all of those 22" rims and other nonsense easily.

I was so happy when GM had to cut back production of that thing. 25,000 a year (new levels) still seems like far too many. I hate having to dodge those things in my VW GTI. Oh well, they still can't outrun me from the stoplight, and I still get 30mpg.

I think the best thing to do is if the insurance companies would do a better job of penalizing the people buying these things. The parents with only two children who think they need to own 6000lbs of vehicle should pay out of the yin-yang. If the people have a farm or are constantly towing large equipment, then they get regular rates.

I don't mind when a person pulls up in a Expedition and 2 parents and 4 or 5 kids pile out. When mommy with one kid and a shih-tzu hop out after they have parked across two spaces (unknowingly, and won't fix it) it ticks me off a little.

I have no problem paying for fuel. I have a truck that stays parked quite a lot but comes in handy. My wife's car and mine are both fun to drive with plenty of room for us and at least one more and get 30 mpg.

Doc
1986 Jeep Cherokee (4cyl)
1996 GMC 1/2 ton p/u (6cyl)

Hey, you aren't even close...

You need to have at least a 200+ hp V6 or V8 in your mid-size SUV and a 300+ hp V8 in your 1/2 ton pick up.

While were at it, ever notice how the real work trucks, the ones used on jobsites doing real work, routinely have a 6cyl or small 8cyl in them? I wonder why??? Oh, maybe because they don't need any more horsepower and any excess is just wasted fuel....

I know that folks have a right to buy what they want, but some are just unreasonable. Maybe it is retaliation from the fine vehicles of the late 70's and 80's.

[Rick Denney]

The Hummer H2 gets about 8 miles to the gallon.

Heck, my 23' motorhome does better than that. And I only drive that when I need a portable hotel room. It is also much more comfortable than a Hummer.

I do, however, have all-wheel-drive on all my vehicles (except the motorhome), because we are in the country and know what it's like to be snowed in, or to have to drive on poorly designed, snow-covered roads. But our daily drivers are small wagons--big enough to hold a Holton, but too small for my visiting parents to be comfortable in the back seat.

My impression of those who buy Hummers is that they drive them no more often than I drive my motorhome, for the most part. It's the Suburbans being driven by suburban moms who injure their backs climbing into the things that annoy me. And then they drive them as though they are small and light.

Rick "whose annoyance is not the basis, however, for policy" Denney

[Mark E. Chachich]

Bloke,

Maybe driving trucks is a sign that those Yankees are finally getting
civilized. Anyway, I will drive home in my good old truck (Dodge pick up) as always.

yehaw,
Mark

[CJ Krause]

***

[Dan Schultz]

Beleive it or not.... I can put my 6/4 BBb rotary horn, a music stand, music folders, ConcertLight, mouthpiece pouch, bag containing valve oil & tuner, AND my fat a.. into my MG Midget just fine!

[MaryAnn]

It's the Suburbans being driven by suburban moms who injure their backs climbing into the things that annoy me. And then they drive them as though they are small and light.

Rick "whose annoyance is not the basis, however, for policy" Denney

Reminds me of an old roommate story. I got this roommate through a service, which I will never do again (I was in college.) .... the lady also rode a bike (MC) and seemed to _always_ be getting in scrapes with it, being run off the road. In my 25 years of MC riding I was never once run off the road, or even had a nasty encounter with a motorist, so I was a bit puzzled. Until I rode in her boat of a car with her....that woman OWNED the road. I mean, she would use her car to "push" people out of the way!! Of course she tried the same thing on the bike....and people had this tendency to "push" back. I think she got what she deserved, but she never did learn, or understand. And we weren't roommates for very long, either.
MA

[Dylan King]

If you are a tuba player, and you mean business, you have to be a Ford Truck Man.

[Tom Mason]

92 F-150 extended cab with 302, and a hard top for the bed.

Hauls upright and electric bass with my ampeg 15 inch speaker cabinet, dolly, and has room in the extended cab to hold my tuba. (bell is too big for the hard top cover).

Will also hold wife and 2 kids, along with shotgun, fishing equipment and pull the boat.

[ThomasDodd]

But who's using more gas? Me, who works at home and rarely drives the beast or the person sitting on a freeway in CA in a smaller car for 1.5 hours each way every day trying to get to work?

The guy/gal sitting, alone, in traffic, in the Suburban, Expedition, or H2 for a few hours each day.

[Tom Mason]

I had a dodge stationwagon in college that was the spittin image of what the grumpy old man is takling about. It had a 350 V-8, and could haul the tuba, upright, amp, cooler, and 6 people.

I could floor the pedal and bounce the back end for 25 to 30 yards before traction would catch, and I could see the gas gauge move when I did it.

My big concern about SUV's is not the mileage as much as the danger they present to the driver and passengers when mishandled.

(disclaimer, I am not accusing anyone of driving in a wreckless manner)

I have worked more MVA's that resulted in 10-7's from roll overs than any other vehicle type. This is probably due to the top weight and unequal distribution of weight over the tires. Add the overall weight of these vehilcles to the balance, and you get a vehicle that goes a lot farther and spins more frequently.

I had a Chevy Blazer for about 10 months, and I could tell when I was close to tipping by the feel of the steering. I could take a turn on highway/interstate grade roads at 50 mph and feel the leaning, where I could not feel it in a truck or my wife's Impala.

In general, I have the problem with the driver who feels like they can drive without regard for their surroundings.

Tom Mason

[ThomasDodd]

(disclaimer, I am not accusing anyone of driving in a wreckless manner)

I will. At least 80% of the SUV drivers I've encountered.

I have worked more MVA's that resulted in 10-7's from roll overs than any other vehicle type. This is probably due to the top weight and unequal distribution of weight over the tires. Add the overall weight of these vehilcles to the balance, and you get a vehicle that goes a lot farther and spins more frequently.

And as long as you remember that and drive accordingly, no problem. But again most SUV drivers don't

I had a Chevy Blazer for about 10 months, and I could tell when I was close to tipping by the feel of the steering. I could take a turn on highway/interstate grade roads at 50 mph and feel the leaning, where I could not feel it in a truck or my wife's Impala.

I haven't noticed it in my Merc. Mountaineer that slow. But I tend to slow to 65 for most curve on the interstate. On back roads and exit ramps I slow down as needed. I do the same in my Caddy too, especially on wet roads. Instead of tipping, inertia wins in a curve.

-Thomas

[Matt G]

You folks want a wagon again?



For about $30K new (no more than the old Country Squire Crown Vic when adjusted for inflation), you can have this sucker.

Pretty fast I imagine and probably enough power to haul a trailer of decent size.

Gas mileage is probably in the mid-20's with the Hemi, but it should be at least somewhat fun to drive when compared to a uber-tank SUV.

[Chuck(G)]

(disclaimer, I am not accusing anyone of driving in a wreckless manner)

Tom, that's darned clever!

Chuck "Reckless drivers are seldom wreckless" (G)

[Doug@GT]

You folks want a wagon again?



For about $30K new (no more than the old Country Squire Crown Vic when adjusted for inflation), you can have this sucker.

Pretty fast I imagine and probably enough power to haul a trailer of decent size.

Gas mileage is probably in the mid-20's with the Hemi, but it should be at least somewhat fun to drive when compared to a uber-tank SUV.

I don't know why, but I like that thing. There are a couple on campus here and they are PRETTY.

Speaking of mileage--I can't find a value on Dodge's website. You estimate mid-20's--that's decent if not good compared to other cars these days. And the Magnum looks a lot better than those 5 mi/gallon SUV things. I'd drive one if it was given to me.

Doug "who has a 30+mpg Cutlass and is content, but doesn't mind gifts "

[Matt G]

Speaking of mileage--I can't find a value on Dodge's website. You estimate mid-20's--that's decent if not good compared to other cars these days.

Well the 300C Chrysler gets mileage around 26mpg. Since they are the same platform using the same Hemi motor, I figure it should be close. BTW the Hemi shuts down four of the cylinders at cruising or light throttle to get better mileage. I hope it works better the Caddy 4-6-8 system.

Anywho, there are still plenty of good small wagons out there. If someone wants a bigger wagon to haul trailers and whatnot, they have an option now. For the consumer, there is a pretty good selection out there without having to own a SUV.

[ThomasDodd]

BTW the Hemi shuts down four of the cylinders at cruising or light throttle to get better mileage. I hope it works better the Caddy 4-6-8 system.

God knows it would be had to do worse that the 4-6-8 mess.

I cannot complain much about my V6 Mountaineer though. 18 around town, and 24-28 on the road, depends on you speed. Hell my Cady gets 8/15, with it 7.9L engine:) Both are sutible for towing too.

This is nice too, though I'd take a V6 version. 32 cu.ft. cargo, 16/23 milage, 3500 lb tow.

[Rick Denney]

I agree, that's stupid. But I'm tired of being lumped into that category just because I happen to drive a Suburban once in a while.

Don't take things personally. Note that one of the qualifiers I added my homily was that they drive them as though they are small and light. I never notice those who drive them conservatively, only the ones who scare me by crowding too close with such a big vehicle.

I own a motorhome, which is the ultimate gas hog and which dwarfs even a Hummer. But I don't commute in it, and I don't follow people closely, cut in front of people, or pull up next to them at stop signs so far that they can no longer see what's coming.

Rick "recalling that the recommended vehicle in 1970 for hauling a 30-foot Airstream was an Oldsmobile Delta 88 with 350 engine, 4-barrel carburetor, TH-400 transmission, .307 differential, and heavy-duty radiator--more towing power than virtually any modern SUV" Denney

[Matt G]

http://www.paulshanklin.com/sounds/Yugo1.ram

And then he put up some ugly pictures of an old Yugo

I drive a Honda Civic Hybrid. More comfortable than my wife's Toyota Corolla. Can hold my MW 2165 in a Walt Johnson flight case, my MW 45 in a Walt Johnson flight case, and my Dolly Bag gig bag for the 6/4 tuba in the trunk. And I can still shift into 5th or R.

Damn I love my car.

See I agree with you to a point. I would own a Golf or Jetta TDI. You could get comparable mileage (like 49mpg) and in the Golf, you could also put everything you mention into it along with a wife, and luggage for two. I have a 6/4 holton in a gigbag and a Besson 993 in a hard case with two duffle bags and other various crap (food, maps, mouthpieces) and still hade room for three or more large duffles. Granted I wouldn't be able to see out the back seat, but oh well.

I like the hybrid concept, but seriously worry about problems with the switching system in the future, even after the warranty runs out. Also, the batteries do have a limited cycle life and have huge disposal problems. Coupled with the fact that these things weigh a lot more than a conventional vehicle also makes me worry about the braking and handling of these vehicles.

I know that the two companies (Toyota and Honda) are light years ahead of any other car manufacturer in terms of quality control, I really worry when the "big three" start trying to do this with their current resources.

I think the deisel idea for vehicles is an excellent alternative, but GM ruined that with most US folks with their poorly engineered chevy 350 that they started sticking in big vehicles. Can anyone figure out why they would use a gasoline burning small block in the TWO BOLT MAIN configuration to use as a platform for a high compression deisel powerplant? What idiots!

Anyhow, there are two good alternatives available with two decent hybrids and the VW TDI offerings if you want 700 miles to a tank.

Oh and Joe, those Yugo's only got like 29city and 32Highway.

My wife's 1.8T Jetta gets that and goes from 0-60 as fast as your "SHO" Taurus.