Orchestral Excerpt Start

[Adam C.]

The Planets -Gustav Holtz

Little-known fact: Tom's great-grandfather.

[J.c. Sherman]

Wow - lot's of opinions...

Remember this - unless you are playing in a historical instrument/period instrument ensemble, you are by no means required to play the exact horn which was specified by the composer...

Remember this as well - it is irresponsible not to know what the intended instrument is, and practice historically INFORMED performance.

My teacher always (until a couple things late in his career) played everything on CC. Some different sizes of CC, but all of it on CC. He was not wrong to do so, but he darn well knew what he was doing, and so did his conductors.

Chosing any instrument for any audition is a crap shoot; maybe the conductor/panel will want to see how you take this information into account, or they might want to hear everything on BAT. Study the ensemble you're applying for, and see what their recordings are like, and choose based on that and what you play well.

If you have the opportunity to chose which instrument you use, bear the same things in mind. I've played Ravel Daphnis and Chloe (sp?) on Euph. I've played Salome and the Firebird on F. I've used ophicleide on Verdi's Requiem. I've played a lot of cimbasso, again, through historically informed performance.

Bruchner specified BASS tuba for his 4th. Doesn't make the choice of a CC wrong, but I think that chosing a CC is as odd as playing Wagner's ring on Euph. There is a difference. Make an informed choice. You've received great suggestions on possible rep - learn it all. On the "questionable" works, learn it on both. Tres Simple.

J.c.S.

[Wyvern]

Bruchner specified BASS tuba for his 4th. Doesn't make the choice of a CC wrong, but I think that chosing a CC is as odd as playing Wagner's ring on Euph

That is a strange statement! Why would anyone want to play Wagner's Ring on a Euph? I doubt if it even has the range! I am sure it has however been done with an Besson EEb as I have myself in the days before I had a contrabass tuba.

I thought long and hard before deciding on using my 6/4 CC to play Bruckner 4 as I do like to do the music justice. But my reasoning was that "Bass Tuba" was simply the standard tuba used in German orchestras at that time. The contrabass tuba was only designated for the first time in Wagner Ring and I doubt if any German orchestras other than Bayreuth had their own for much of the 19th century. Also remember that until tubas were well established in orchestras (late 19th century?), the only instruments around would have been in the local military band. Therefore the part would be played by a musician brought in from the local band playing their normal instrument which could be in any key - but more likely than not a BBb.

Also remember that the purpose is to produce the most satisfying performance - not to try and reproduced what it might have sounded like at its premiere. The composer just had the instruments available at that time and place, but that does not mean he would not prefer something better. Being an organist I am sure Bruckner would have loved the organ like sound from a modern 6/4

[J.c. Sherman]

You make my point exactly (though I think - maybe faulty memory - that Rheingold is listed as bass tuba...). You take many things into account. Perhaps I should have chose Bruchner 4 again for my point; A bass tuba is as different from a Contrabass as a Tenor tuba is from Bass. To use a bigger instrument, you need to understand that scoring, that voicing, and the performance realities for which it was scored.

Might Brughner have preferred a 6/4 York? I'll bet he would. But he didn't have acces to one, and scored for what he would presume would show up. If you don't take this into account, you ruin the balance and voicing that was scored.

The other instruments are bigger and louder now, no doubt. And this also bears heavily on the equasion. Know your orchestra, know you conductor, but know what you're supposed to be; our instrument is still FAR from standardized. You're not wrong to use BAT for Bruchner 4. Not at all. And Bruchner 7 DOES specify Contrabass Tuba (actually, I think it's an ossia), so he probably like BAT.

I just want the original questioner to do just that - question. Discuss with the conductor "this was written for a relatively small tuba; what would you like". They won't have known that 98 times out of 100. In my line, I show up for one or two rehearsals and play; so I have to guess and run. Haven't had a problem with my choices yet. And my low brass collegues like the "novelty" of hearing the closer to original voicing. God knows, the woodwinds don't mind!

J.c.S.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Might Brughner have preferred a 6/4 York? I'll bet he would. But he didn't have acces to one, and scored for what he would presume would show up. If you don't take this into account, you ruin the balance and voicing that was scored.

Hard to believe, I know, but some of us can actually play a large-bore C tuba with sensitivity. BAT doesn't always just mean loud.

If you don't take this into account, you ruin the balance and voicing that was scored.

Nah, that's already been done by the rest of the brass and their much-larger-than-Bruckner-scored-for instruments.

[J.c. Sherman]

Yikes! I'm not implying you can't play BAT quietly, but there is a difference in sound and presence, or they wouldn't be built.

Some German bones at the time were very close in size to our American instruments - and bigger doesn't necessarily mean louder for them either (can't only apply bigger-louder standards to tubas!). Again, not criticising, but it's a tone color that was not invisioned, and a balance (would you want to play a Bach duet with a Bassoon on a 6/4? - if so, this discussion is moot ) that's would be a surprise in that time.

Again - no one's saying go and buy a c. 1890 F tuba made in Vienna for Bruchner 4 or your doing a disservice to the music. But you must know the role you are filling. Guaranteed, the horns know

J.c.S.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Agree to disagree on the concept of trying to reproduce the composer's intent, at least with respect to instrument size. Your comment "know what you're supposed to be" is confusing to me...my definition of that is almost surely different from another musician's.

Here's a thought...play what sounds good to you, what your conductor/colleagues/audience likes, and to hell (gasp!) with whether the original part says "Basstuba" or "Kontrabasstuba."

Funny that you never see arguments for authentic gut strings or gambas on the string boards...

[J.c. Sherman]

Agree to disagree on the concept of trying to reproduce the composer's intent, at least with respect to instrument size. Your comment "know what you're supposed to be" is confusing to me...my definition of that is almost surely different from another musician's.

Here's a thought...play what sounds good to you, what your conductor/colleagues/audience likes, and to hell (gasp!) with whether the original part says "Basstuba" or "Kontrabasstuba."

Funny that you never see arguments for authentic gut strings or gambas on the string boards...

We're closer than you think.

I will take mild (not serious) umbrage to saying "to hell" with anything the composer says, but that's beside the point.

All the things you mentioned are correct - listen to your group and conductor first, and play what you think sounds good. Absolutely!

And we shouldn't be trying to "reproduce" a conductors intent - that's simply impossible. What all of this is about is interpretation. I merely point out that a responsible interpretation, as well as instrument choice, comes from a learned position rather than a blind one, and from recognizing that there is a very real difference in instrument keys and sizes, or such varieties of instrument wouldn't exist. Again, a CC is as different from an F as an F is to a Euph. Break out the Yorkbrunner for Pictures? Many do. They're not wrong unless they don't care.

Know what you're supposed to be is knowing where you, your instrument, and the composition come from. Then interpret. You almost can't be "wrong".

J.c.S.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

I agree with you that we are closer in our thinking than this thread might indicate.

I do tire, however, from seeing the endless threads on the site regarding how a particular model, key, or size of tuba is "wrong" for a particular piece. Honestly, if I went to a performance by the St. Louis Symphony and the tuba player nailed Bydlo on a Conn 20K, I wouldn't think to myself how "inappropriate" the instrument choice was. I don't understand why some players get so wrapped up in instrument choice, and I think many would be better served to learn to sound good on what they have.

[Tom Holtz]

The Planets -Gustav Holtz

Little-known fact: Tom's great-grandfather.

Spelins? thiss aint no englesh clas. them spelins dint counts.

Actually, the mistake I enjoy making with my name is with anyone who has seen my father. He's got the straight hair, the big square glasses... There's more than enough similarity with the person in question that if I offhandedly mention my "Uncle Lou" in passing, I get a big wide-eyed double-take.

Great-Grandpa Gustav wouldn't suck, either.