Mouthpieces and the Holy Grail

[The Jackson]

King mouthpiece or something like that for marching band (what ever comes with new king sousaphones)

NOOOO!!!

I despise those things.

[iiipopes]

Of course, I did wrap a piece of lead tape around the shank at the bowl of the Kelly to keep it from overblowing.

Can someone explain how to do this?

It's golfer's lead tape you can get at any golf pro shop. It's thin, pliable, and has the adhesive already on it. It's used to adjust the swingweight of golf clubs.

[SplatterTone]

I've thought, for a while now, that a Kelly 12 would be a good addition to the line. It was rooting around in WWBW's clearance stuff a few days ago and discovered that there is in fact a Kelly 12. It got here this morning, and it is called a DEG Astro Nylon A03-14AW. Inside diameter is about 33mm, deep-ish cup, throat big enough to allow full sounding low notes. Shank is tip is about .525 inch. The sound on the 191 is smooth and nicely balanced. I'd say it is essentially a Bach 12 with a slightly larger throat (it plays that way, but I can't measure it). I like it. I think it might be going on my short list.

The quest continues .....

[iiipopes]

I have one of those. The nylon or delrin, whatever the cup is made of, is softer than the lexan of a Kelly, and therefore can nick or gouge much easier, so you have to be careful with it. I also find that for some reason, for me, it gives a "whang" to the tone that for me is detrimental. But my son seems to get a good note or two out of it, in spite of him being only 10 years old.

It does have a medium bowl cup, and should do well with a variety of tubas, especially large bore horns, I would imagine, to get a lot of air through the horn but retain good response and some overtone development.

[SplatterTone]

I don't know if there is more than one size to these Astro Nylon jobs. The one I got is a very close copy of a Bach 12 and plays a lot like the 12. The tone is a little bit subdued from the 12 -- maybe because of the soft material or non-smooth surface texture. If somebody wanted a metal for normal playing and non-metal for cold weather playing, these two would make a good match.

[SplatterTone]

but I want to stay with the same rim contour and as close to the 32.10mm I.D. as I can get if I'm ever going to experiment again.

What is this "IF I'm ever going to experiment again"??

Oh! Looook

TU39 / Tuba Theinert Solo
very deep
45,8 mm (1,803 inch)
8,6 mm (0,339 inch)
32,0 mm (1,260 inch)
gold plated (ooooooh aaaaaaaah)

[Tubaryan12]

but not until I'm through with these 3:

Perantucci 7
Perantucci 12
Giardinelli 18

[Tubaryan12]

Ron Bishop = Tuba God
Tubaryan12 = tuba hack

I need as much help as I can get.

[TubaBobH]

I started playing a Bach 18 in 1965 when I was in 7th grade and continued using it for the next twelve years, at which time I took a 28 year Hiatus from the tuba. During those first twelve years I successfully used it in High School Bands, All Regional Bands, All-State Bands, College Bands and All-Intercollegiate Bands. It never dawned on me to try another mouthpiece. I am not really sure if that was because there were not that many other mouthpieces to choose from back then, or if I was just oblivious to other options as long as I was enjoying and experiencing success with my 18.

When I started playing again a couple of years ago I was absolutely astounded with the number and breadth of mouthpieces a tuba player could choose from. Most of this "mouthpiece education" I learned on TubeNet. I was like a kid in a candy store. However after two years, numerous mouthpieces (funnel, bowl, brass, stainless steel, lexan...), and hundreds of dollars spent, this is what I have learned -- most of which has already been artfully stated in some of the above posts:

-- The sound I produce on my King 1241UB is fundamentally my sound - not the sound of the mouthpiece being used. The differences in sound output between the mouthpieces are very subtle. My sound is fundamentally the same regardless of what mouthpiece I use. The true difference between mouthpieces is in how easy/difficult or enjoyable/unenjoyable they make the experience of producing the best of "my sound".
-- There are no shortcuts. Looking back, I think initially I was hoping to find a mpc that would make my getting back into playing shape a litle easier. However, I found out quickly that no mouthpiece will shortcut the practice required to increase your playing proficiency.
-- There is no single mouthpiece that will do everything better than every other mouthpiece.
--Tuba players tend to spend a little too much time, effort and money searching for the "Holy Grail" mouthpiece.

Now here's the kicker, after two years of trying numerous different types of mouthpieces, I decided to go back to my roots and try a Bach 18 again. My original 18 was too banged up to use anymore and was on a shelf in my study simply as a sentimental memento, so I got on the internet and bought a new Bach 18. And I fell in love with it all over again. The precise slotting of notes, intonation, response, control and feedback all seem easier and, therefore, more enjoyable on the 18. The very subtle improvement in sound is a brighter, more lyrical mid and upper register without sacrificing a full and robust lower register. However, as I started my post, it is still fundamentally "my sound" being produced, not that of the Bach 18.

So I find at age 55 I have come full circle and am back to preferring the same mouthpiece I was using 43 years ago when I was 12, and there is something both comforting and timeless in that. I will keep my Conn Helleberg and my LM-7. They are both close seconds to my Bach 18. However, the other half dozen mouthpieces will be put in a drawer for now and eventually sold.

[TMurphy]

I actually started playing on a Back 32E, which was a *tiny* tuba mouthpiece. It worked for me as a freshman in high school, because I was switching from trumpet. It didn't last long, and I quickly moved to the 18. One day, I found a tarnished old tuba mouthpiece in a cabinet at school--a Conn Helleberg. I took it home, cleaned it up, and tried it out. I hated it. Not so much the sound, which was nice, but it was very uncomfortable for me. I tried it for a bit, but went back to the Bach. Then, in college, my teacher gave me a Dillon M1C, which I used on my King 2341. I really liked it. Then I sold the king, and bought my Besson Eb, which remains my only horn today. I originally played on a Wick 2L in goldplate, which had a nice, blooming sound, but was shaky for me in the high register, and difficult to get around on. I then tried a Wick 2SL, and the shallow cup solved it...same nice sound, with more clarity and much better flexibility.

Of course, lately I've been trying the 2L again. I still like the 2SL better, but I really miss the softer feel of gold. So I'm starting to wonder. Should I plate my mouthpiece? Get another 2SL in gold? Or maybe try out one of those stainless steel mouthpieces everyone's talking about (I know Greg suggested an LM9...any other ideas)???



Sigh...and I was always so happy with the 2SL....

[TubaBobH]

I know the Bach 24AW has been a very popular mouthpiece with Eb tuba players in the UK for many years. I believe it was John Fletcher's mouthpiece of choice. It has a slightly smaller inner diameter than the Bach 18, a thicker rim and has a pretty deep cup.

It is not stainless, but it is a third the price of an LM-9 and might be worth a try before you purchase the LM-7. And if you fall in love with it, you can always have it gold plated. Just a thought.

[TMurphy]

I know the Bach 24AW has been a very popular mouthpiece with Eb tuba players in the UK for many years. I believe it was John Fletcher's mouthpiece of choice. It has a slightly smaller inner diameter than the Bach 18, a thicker rim and has a pretty deep cup.

It is not stainless, but it is a third the price of an LM-9 and might be worth a try before you purchase the LM-7. And if you fall in love with it, you can always have it gold plated. Just a thought.

Forgot to mention the 24AW in my previous post. Been there, played on that (with this horn), definitely not what I'm looking for. Thanks for the help, though!

[TubaBobH]

Forgot to mention the 24AW in my previous post. Been there, played on that (with this horn), definitely not what I'm looking for. Thanks for the help, though!

No problem. The 24AW was never one of my favorites either, although some Eb players think they are a top drawer mpc.

[Kevin Hendrick]

... lately I've been trying the 2L again. I still like the 2SL better, but I really miss the softer feel of gold. So I'm starting to wonder. Should I plate my mouthpiece? Get another 2SL in gold? Or maybe try out one of those stainless steel mouthpieces everyone's talking about (I know Greg suggested an LM9...any other ideas)???



Sigh...and I was always so happy with the 2SL....

If the 2SL is still your favorite, and you prefer the feel of gold, it seems like a good solution would be to order a 2SL in gold, and when it arrives, send your current one out to be plated. That way, you won't have to "do without" while your current one's out being plated, and when it comes back you'll have a backup!

[TMurphy]

... lately I've been trying the 2L again. I still like the 2SL better, but I really miss the softer feel of gold. So I'm starting to wonder. Should I plate my mouthpiece? Get another 2SL in gold? Or maybe try out one of those stainless steel mouthpieces everyone's talking about (I know Greg suggested an LM9...any other ideas)???



Sigh...and I was always so happy with the 2SL....

If the 2SL is still your favorite, and you prefer the feel of gold, it seems like a good solution would be to order a 2SL in gold, and when it arrives, send your current one out to be plated. That way, you won't have to "do without" while your current one's out being plated, and when it comes back you'll have a backup!

That, sir, sounds like a good idea. And probably would cost the same or just slightly more than one of those LM9's.

[iiipopes]

In addition to my signature, which I have just updated, Kanstul has just made me a custom 18 that is working really, really well with my recording bell on my 186. When I got the recording bell up and running thanks to Dan Schultz, I didn't like the tonal or response characteristics of almost all of my other mouthpieces, with the exception of the Kelly 18. But, of course, the Kelly 18 being lexan, was prone to blat a little, even with the lead tape around the throat.

Kanstul makes a version of an 18 which in depth is about halfway between a Bach 18 and the Kelly 18, but in the traditional 1.26 cup diameter. I emailed Jim at Kanstul to see if he could do the same mouthpiece for a reasonable price in 1.28. Well, since everything they do is laser & CNC, he was able to send me a cross-section trace like they have on their "comparator" online for trumpet mouthpieces that compared their stock 18 to my desired modification. I pulled the trigger, and it is exactly what I need for that combination and application. The 1.28 diameter is what fits my embouchure best, the bowl cup gives me the overtones I need for projection and blend with the ensembles and occasions I use the recording bell, and the depth gives a tad more fundamental than a stock 18, but doesn't lose any response, and the more moderate throat and backbore help me with my breath support and control.

Now, it's not the easiest mouthpiece to play. I started trying "too hard" to get it going, and the throat and backbore, also being a tad smaller than current Bach production, "barked" or "cracked" on me with my slight overbite occasionally trying to use too much top lip. But once I relaxed into it, recentered myself and got my top/bottom lip back into correct proportion, the tone really blossomed.

If you have a mouthpiece that you like, but not completely, and are always asking yourself, "I like this mouthpiece, but if only [insert detail] was changed," then Jim at Kanstul can take care of you.

[Tubaryan12]

17 years ago, I bought my first tuba, and with it came a Bach 18. This was my principal mouthpiece for years until one day I bought a Helleberg on a lark. I then prefered to use the bach if I hadn't practiced much and the Helleberg if I had been practicing a lot.

Over the last 3+ years of my search I have found this to be the case. If I am playing a lot, I need a bigger inside diameter to the cup. I'm now playing more, and the smaller mouthpieces just don't get the job done. My main piece is now the Miraphone TU-23 (32.5 mm). Most of the stuff I play now is band and quintet and this mouthpiece with its quick response is perfect for that. I have a Mike Finn 4H on the way. That will get a try as well.

[Tubaryan12]

I realize that all this is meaningless for anyone but me. Reading about someone's searching for the right mp is like reading about an athlete's search for the right shoe. Unless you happen to have feet and other physical attributes identical to that person, and unless you play exactly the same sport in exactly the same way, another person's choice of shoe may give you absolutely no guidance in selecting your own. The RM-1. works well for me on my horn, but if I could play like my old instructor on a Bach 18, I would have happily stuck with the 18 years ago.

YMMV.

That's the thing....when I originally started this thread, I was (and still am) more interested in the journey, than in the actual mouthpiece that each player settled on. That's the real interesting part. The rest is just equipment. The poll was just out of curiosity.

[iiipopes]

Oh, yeah: I keep a spare Kelly 18 in my car. Sometimes I use it for buzzing, or "cooling off" on the way home if it has been a long or strenuous rehearsal, and I never have to worry about forgetting something.

[Tubaryan12]

Thank you, Mike Finn.