Our Old, Beloved Horns (Long Lament)

[windshieldbug]

Often the horn just finds you, as the slant-rotor Marzan CC did me. It took me a good while to learn how to use the tune-any-note feature, and then how to use my ears to do it *when needed*, and not according to a pre-set pattern.

Then the Rose Solo mouthpiece, which lit up the tone on that overly conical horn like a nice hearth fire.

I saved that combination, my wife had the string action valves converted to mechanical, and every time I find a situation to use the sucker I remember the sound, where I came from, and how far that horn took me.

I think I'll sell a kidney first!

[Wyvern]

Wade, Your post brought tears to my eyes!

Is there no alternative to selling one of your beloved tubas? Do you have no valuable ornaments, furniture, jewelery, or whatever that you could sell which does not mean so much? Or change something in your lifestyle to save money?

I know my tubas mean so much to me, they would be about the last things I would part with - however short!

I hope you can find a solution.

[GC]

Bloke,

I owned a MW 25 in college, and I didn't hang onto it for two reasons: inflexible intonation (it was hard to lip up and down, and I don't like to pull slides) and the fact that while the tone was nice, dark, and focused, I couldn't get a fat sound out of it. Has the change to the Lyon-Healy bell given it a fatter sound or more of an "American" tone? Just curious.

On the other hand, my old 25 was built like a tank, was easy to play high and low, had wonderful (but noisy) valves, and you could get a ton of volume out of it. I still often regret letting it go.

[TubaRay]

Nice to see you back Doc

Glad to be here.

Just curious. When did you lose your amateur status, Doc?

[windshieldbug]

Just curious. When did you lose your amateur status, Doc?

Well, I've always hidden it. Didn't want to come across as boastful or anything.

Better than being just a semi-professional ***!

[Tom]

Note that I have not once played nor even picked up my Alexander since purchasing my two new CC tubas...

Then we played the show.

I was floored by how much easier the Alexander is for so many things. I was very surprised at how much easier and better in tune the scale above the staff is on this old tuba and how very easy the low register speaks. The horn sounds so amazing and plays so well if you use the proper slide pulls and alternates in the middle register.

Yep.

Alexanders are "special," though it takes a certain player to appreciate and understand that and learn how to get the results out of it.

My wife has been on me to sell this tuba so that I can pay some bills and ease the financial stress under which I am currently living. I had been putting that day off because of the special nature of this old horn. My wife sits next to me in our stage setup with her head nearly IN my bell. Afterwards she suggested that I sell my 4/4 CC rather than my Alex.

She had forgotten just how wonderful that horn sounds.

Our bass trombonist had forgotten just how wonderful that horns sounds.

I had forgotten how wonderful that horn sounds.

Sell the Alexander?!?!?!



You'll regret it and will have a difficult time replacing it if you have a change of heart. Alexanders are "special" tubas (I know I already said that). Nothing else out there sounds like one, for sure. It's a beautiful sound, the tuba sound, in my opinion. If that's the sound in your head that you're trying to make, nothing else will do, and you'll grow frustrated tying to find that sound in other tubas...it's just not there.

I seriously wish that I could find that exact tone (not something "like" it as I have tried several horns "like" it that do nothing for me at all) and could make it spread a little more like an American tuba and give it a really excellent scale. Man, that would be great.

Don't let the Alexander go while you search for this. Only a vintage Alexander sounds like a vintage Alexander.

Why (in your own words) you need to keep it:

But I have never, ever played a tuba that plays like a good 163.

But the tone is not that colorful and my Alex nearly made me cry from joy on some of the stuff we played yesterday. What a tone. What a gorgeous sound.

I now think that after a year and two months on my BAT that I still prefer my Alexander.

When asked to listen carefully they nearly all prefer the Alexander tone but all agree that the BAT is easier to blend with despite its lack of color.

I just do not want to part ways with this nice, old tuba. She has been my baby for 13 years of my life. And she still sounds so sweet.

I want to keep this tuba and play her more often.

And selling off my 1958 Alexander 163 will just kill part of me as a player.

This is exactly why you should keep it, maybe even at the expense of your MW 32.

Maybe I will just sell off my 4/4 CC, which is currently my main orchestral freelance horn for church and choral gigs and for some smaller MSO stuff. The horn is a MW 32 with a York bell and I am QUITE fond of it too. Our bass trombonist prefers this tuba to any that I own. I prefer it for some things hands down. It has the York tone. It is a five valved CC. I plays quite well in smaller settings. I love it.

Sell it for the Alexander. The Alexander is an extension of you, if you will. You put in the time to learn how to play it and get results from it, and above all you can get the sound out of it. It the sound only an Alexander can make. Plus, remember that you learned how to play your Alexander. Each one is different. If you sell it only to decide you need that sound back, you'll probably be able to locate another Alexander, but they are all different, some drastically different from one another, and you'll have to "start over" even if you buy another down the road.

But something has to be sold off, and fairly soon.

Sell the MW 32.

You'll regret selling the Alexander...I promise you will. Don't do it!

[cjk]

Wade,

IIRC, you also work (or formerly worked?) as a brass repairman.

A MW32 isn't that difficult to come buy. They seem pretty cheap to buy used.

A York Monster E-flat bell isn't that difficult to come by (I've actually got one in my garage).

The tuba in your arsenal that is the easiest to replace is the MW32. You can have that one again. You could build it yourself. You could build it relatively cheaply.

The Alex would be extremely difficult to replace.
If purchased new, the 2265 would not be difficult, but very expensive to replace.
The MW32 wouldn't be all that hard to replace, so I'd sell that one.

Hope this helps,
Christian

[jeopardymaster]

Sell yourself on the street corner before you sell your horns.

There's an exchange in City of Angels (the musical, not the movie), involving a Marlowesque private eye and his flea-bitten secretary. Secretary asks "Where am I going to find a thousand bucks? PI replies "Well, you could sell your body a thousand times."

Do not sell any of your horns. If at all possible. Easy to say, harder to do, but in any event, good luck with it. May God smite you with a better answer.

[Dan Schultz]

I have some very good playing horns. But.... there's one still in the 'stable' that I probably should have gotten rid of long ago. It's a satin silver King 1235 bell-front front-action Eb to which I added a 4th valve hoping to cure some of the intonation problems. Well... the additional valve may have helped a bit, but overall, the intonation really sucks! I still use the horn for some Dixieland gigs simply because I like the big, full sound the horn produces. It's really 'ratty' and doesn't blend at all with a concert band. But... for a small Dixie ensemble, the sound is incredible. I'll probably keep it forever. I DID say 'probably'.

[The Big Ben]

I just wanted to share with all here how one can fall in love with an instrument that has, as mentioned earlier, some compelling characteristics that cause one to obsess over it and learn all of its quirks and oddities so that they can perform on it like it was a wonderphone.

You have mentioned the characteristics that can be anthropomorphized to those of a good wife in a 30 year marriage. There are quirks to be dealt with and situations to be planned for but the music you make with her is like no other.

I think one other poster had it right: Keep the Alex. Sell the Frankenhorn. You're a horn jockey and can make another. You might not be able to get another horn that works and sounds and makes you feel like your Alex.

Keep it.

[Rick Denney]

I have bought many tubas over the years. I've also sold a few. I never sold one to which I had an emotional connection.

It's not the instrument. The instrument is just a hunk of brass. It's the sum of our experiences with the instrument that go into that emotion. So, the sound of the Alex is magical. The main reason for that is the relationship you have to that sound. It's a sound that has long-term significance for you, and when you couple that the years of practice it took to manage the instrument's faults and the successful performances using it, it forms an important symbol of your path.

As an engineer, I have tools of my trade: Computers, books, and calculators. I still own the Keufel and Esser slide rule from my younger days. I don't need it and I never use it, but I still have it somewhere. I still have foundational books and documents of my profession, and the most impressive library of anyone in my company. They laugh at it, but to me it represents a personal history. I have used very sophisticated calculators over various types, but still find I can get through a stack of calculations faster with the HP-11C I've been using since 1980. Even if a better one came along, I would keep it. Can one have an emotional connection to a calculator? I would suggest therapy for anyone who says yes, but I still would not sell it. It reflects a simplicity of approach and a clarity of thought that is built into the way I do engineering, and it still sits on my desk even if I don't use it for weeks at a time. I finally did let my first real computer (a Kaypro II) go. Emotional about a computer? That's just silly. But I wrote my first important programs on that computer. I made several modifications to it, and even fabricated a gig bag for it to carry on trips (this was before laptop computers, of course). I kept it for 15 years after I'd stopped using it. (That said, I don't miss it, heh, heh).

I still have the bike I raced in college, even though I don't have the legs to ride it. Why do I keep it? To remind myself that I did it. Sometimes I need that reminder.

Those milestones we cross in pursuit of our own idea of excellence help define us to ourselves. The tools we used to cross those milestones become symbols for the passage. Even if they have lost some of their practical utility, there is no harm and keeping the memento so that we remember where we have been and what is important to us.

Mike Sanders sold his Alex back in the 80's when he purchased a Yorkbrunner. Many years later, he had an opportunity to buy it back. He played it in a rehearsal at Powell Hall for about ten minutes and then set it aside in favor of his Yorkbrunner. I asked him if it was because the Alex was so much work. He shook his head and explained, "I was afraid the maestro would really like it". It seemed clear to me that it still pulled on his psyche.

Rick "blessed with the ability to keep mementos" Denney

[Jay Bertolet]

Wade,

I am not exactly in the same boat as you but I do have a very similar situation. My first CC tuba, a Rudy 4/4 that is simply a dream, sits unused for the most part in my studio. I have several horns now, like you, and they are all wonderful tools for specific things. The Rudy, though it has a unique sound (much like the Alex sound) and requires a lot of work to make sound great (like the Alex), sits mostly because the other tools are easier to use. In most cases, the other tools are also better suited to the tasks I use them for as well. It has occured to me several times over the years to simply sell that horn. I have not, nor will I ever if I have anything to say about it. I have two reasons why:

1) In my early college days, ironically during the time period when I found my Rudy and purchased it, I happened across a big Cerveny BBb. It was one of a slew of instruments that I ran into while trying horns looking for the right one. It was magical. The horn responded to me in a way that very few horns do. I was ready to stop my search right then and there but, stupidly, I reasoned that the horn wasn't a CC and would, in all likelihood, be required to be replaced very quickly. Unfortunately, I was in college during that time period when most of us labored under the false presumption that a CC was required to be a professional orchestral tuba player. I passed that horn by, never found another anywhere near like it, and have regretted that decision all my playing days.

2) It took a very real, long term effort to make my playing on my Rudy acceptable. Intonation was a nightmare to solve and the twisted fingering chart that rests in my head for that instrument is mind boggling. Once all that work was done, the fun really began. I was able to do things on that horn I wasn't even aware were possible. It ended up being a very two-way street where I learned the tuba and I learned my playing through the tuba. It taught me about as much about my playing as I learned about how it played. That quality I find irreplaceable. I go back to playing that horn in my studio and it re-teaches me all those lessons. It is a bridge back to the time and thought processes that made my playing what it is. For that reason, it is as much a teaching aid for me as it is a fine concertizing instrument. None of my other instruments quite do that for me so I'll be hanging onto that horn for a long time indeed.

I know it's hard to solve the financial issues. Especially now. Don't make a mistake you may never be able to correct. I would find any other solution. Best of luck to you, whatever you decide.

Regards,
Jay Bertolet

[kingrob76]

Never, ever, sell a horn you KNOW you will regret selling before you even put it on the market. I've done this. I sold my 188 in 1996 and to this day I regret it. I might feel this way about my Getzen CB-50, not 100% sure yet, but I do miss it because I really clicked on it.

You've spoken volumes about your 163 and your 2265. I can tell right now that if you sell either of these horns you will regret it. You've got a 2265 that (apparently) plays on the lighter side of BAT-land, which is a very good thing. The 163 is a GREAT compliment to that kind of sound. Yes, the concepts are totally different - that too can be a good thing. But most importantly you *click* with these horns, and that alone makes them worth keeping. Besides, if you sell the Alex you'll have to buy a hard case for your 2265, lessening the windfall.

[Mitch]

Don't sell it!

In 2000, I sold my HB-2P. It's a great horn. I knew other people with HB-2P's who'd play mine and say, "Wanna trade?" I swear it could play a pedal C if the wind blew across the mouthpiece. It could play a c an octave above the staff if I hiccupped on Tuesday and picked up the horn on Wednesday. It could...well, it could just darn near play itself.

My situation was slightly different. I'd had an accident, and due to significant physical discomfort, I thought my playing days were over. Sure, I could use the money, and used some of it to get a grand piano. But my heart was breaking the moment I drove away from the sale. The horn is now with Ken Solheim. Ken- if you're reading this, I still stand by my earlier edict: if you EVER decide to sell this horn, you call me first, right? Please?

The only shortcoming I thought the horn had was that at times I wished I had a bigger horn. Verdi's Requiem, for example, left me feeling like I just didn't have enough horn. But then it was over, and it was all good. I once won an audition on it, using it as the only horn for the audition, for Berlioz and everything. Change the mouthpiece and it was a whole different instrument.

Don't sell it, man. D'ya hear my heart breaking even now? I've got a couple good horns now, but it's been about 7 years, I think, and it still pains me that I don't have this horn.

Now, I weep.

[Ted Cox]

Wade,

From one Alex lover to another, don't sell that horn. Sell something, anything else. Be true to yourself and don't think too much. What sound do YOU want to make? In 16 seasons with the Oklahoma City Philharmonic, I've never risked taking in anything other than my Alex, (other than my F). I never wanted to give anyone an option or choice of equipment. Taking that much time off from the Alex and now going back to it with a better perspective should tell you everything you need to know. You trusted me when I told you to buy it. Trust me now and don't sell it.

Ted

[MikeMason]

It sounds like to me you should consider selling the 2265.You seem to be more fond of the Alex and no one in power in your gig seems to really care.You could probably sell both MW's and still function just fine with the Alex and the 621.Just my observation...

[windshieldbug]

Save it, and at least, as the low brass used to quote from The Bridge on the River Kwai



"Be happy in your work"

[KenS]

Hi Mitch...

I still have your horn... but sorry to say the chances of me selling it are slim - and yes, should that day ever come, you will be first in line!

I sit next to Dan Oberloh in the Puget Brass, we both play HB-2P's (yeah - instead of Eb's) The sound coming out of the bells is identical. Really amazing consistency.

I feel guilty that I broke your heart, but not *that* guilty.

About a horn that I had. Years ago when I was studying in Chicago I was playing a Zeiss. I had this horn since high school and all through college. Valves were funky but it had a real sweet sound. In 1976 I bought an HB-2, I sold the Zeiss to a student of Mr. Jacobs. I didn't get a whole lot of money and now I wish I had that horn back (although - I would still keep Mitch's horn). In 1986, I sold the HB-2 to a student of Chester Schmitz - I would like to find that horn as well... not that I necessarily want that one back, I would just like to know where it is...

Ken S.

[Mojo workin']

I love all of my tubas. I hate to have to get rid of them.

And selling off my 1958 Alexander 163 will just kill part of me as a player.

Doesn't life just suck sometimes?

Wade, you have such an entitlement mentality, especially where tuba ownership is concerned.

Yes, life does suck sometimes. When, for example, in the interest of being fiscally responsible you have to sell off a beloved horn of great quality and sound. Or when you live in a market that has military players, already having a full time playing job, taking(sometimes) work that the local freelancers could be playing, they having went to expensive music schools with aspirations of professional playing and such. Yes, life can definitely suck sometimes.

[bort]

If you sold it to a TubeNetter though, it'd be like the ex-girlfriend that you still run into. Okay, maybe that's a little over-dramatic. It'd be comforting to know it's being played and is in good hands.

I hate to hear these kinds of stories, but we all have to do what we have to do. Not easy and not fun, but could be worse.