FrankenTuba idea, comments/advise?

[NDSPTuba]

I have been toying around with this idea for a while and thought I'd run it past ya'll and seek some advise and comments. I would like to take a 21J ( or 20J is I can't find an upright bell which is prefered ) and put a front valve section in it. I think this would potentially make a nice 6/4 BBb horn to play in my community band. I know I would need a valve set ( any ideas/suggestions ) and a new leadpipe ( again ideas/suggestions ). I was think possibly a King 4V valve set, but my concern is it would be to small a bore ( .687 I think ) with that large of branch set afterwards. Anyways, all comments and suggestions are much appreciated.

thanks,

James

[eupher61]

but, that's not the point...he wants to have fun, too.

Spoilsport.

[iiipopes]

I think there are not one, but two, yes, count 'em, two, that meet that description for sale right now at Dillons:

Conn 34J "Grand Orchestral:"
http://www.dillonmusic.com/HeleoCart/Pr ... 89884.aspx" target="_blank

and

Conn "Monster" (doesn't have a model number):
http://www.dillonmusic.com/HeleoCart/Pr ... 32390.aspx" target="_blank

I do note that both of these have the .734 souzy bore rather than the larger .770 2XJ bore. But what's a difference of only about 1/32 inch on over 18 feet linear between friends?

Also, Dan Oberloh has done this exact project with a Martin:
http://www.oberloh.com/martintuba/martintuba.htm" target="_blank

[Dan Schultz]

Dear NDSPTUBA,
I think you should look at the somewhat rare Conn 25J that “tuba tinker” has as his avatar.

Hey, Brian! That horn in my avatar is a 1932 King model 1235 Eb (bell-front/front-action) to which I've added a 4th valve.

[NDSPTuba]

I do realize that the tuba I'm talking about building exists in the form of a 34J, but those are $5K and what I'm talking about is a $1500 dollar project and allot of fun. I've always been a do it yourselfer, and if I can't afford what I want, I try and think of a way to build it cheaper than it would cost to buy. You can get 20J's( 21's are more of course) on ebay for ~$500, then all I need is a valve set and a lead pipe. I don't want a 25J as is, because I don't want top valves. And I'm not convinced that the "pinched" port through the valves to help get the short action is conducive to a great performing instrument. I could be wrong about that, but I still really don't want top valves. So what I'm wondering is what would make a good donor for a 4V valve set, and what should I do about a leadpipe.

I thought about using a 24 or 25J and just reworking the valves into a front valve arrangement, but I think that would be exceedingly difficult with the way the tubing comes off the valves. Allot of brazing would be needed, and I'm ambitious, but not that ambitious. The idea of merging two 20J valve sets is interesting but it also seems like allot of brazing. I'm not totally opposed to the idea, as I have some tig welding experience ( similar to brazing ) but I'd like to trying finding a nice 4V valve set first.

[GC]

The 25J is a 4-valve horn. If it has an upright removable bell, 3 valves, and short-stroke pistons, it's a 21J. Or a 20J with a replacement bell.

[bort]

Behold, the Conn 34J BBb tuba!
[snip]

Hey Wade, is that the same model as this (currently for sale at Baltimore Brass):



I was there today, and it is HUGE... for me it was serious 'holy sh@t' kind of big. Maybe I'm just not around BATs often enough...

[Dan Schultz]

The idea of merging two 20J valve sets is interesting but it also seems like allot of brazing. I'm not totally opposed to the idea, as I have some tig welding experience ( similar to brazing ) but I'd like to trying finding a nice 4V valve set first.

You can graft piston casings together without brazing... using regular solder. The reason they are brazed as the factory is so they can be treated as a sub-asssembly and won't come apart during secondary assembly operations that only require soft solder. The biggest problem that I see from merging two 20J valve sets into something that is usable as a front-action valve set is reconfiguring the valve circuits. The knuckles on a top-action valveset exit totally different than those on a front-action valveset. Meinl makes some pretty nice front-action valve sections but they are also pretty expensive.

[The Big Ben]

Dear NDSPTUBA,
As to building your own 25J clone I would suggest that it wouldn’t be hard (relatively speaking) to rob a 20 K sousaphone for exactly what they used in the factory. If you must have four valves, get two 20Js and solder the second AND THIRD VALVES from one to the other ( I mention the third ( fifth) valve because it isn’t worth all the trouble for just one valve in my opinion ). It took me approximately 66 hours to do a single valve addition ( I don’t have an instrument shop) so do them both now and build a thumb lever for the fifth so you’ll not only have a five piston set to play on but also to show because five in a row is particularly beautiful as seen in double belled euphoniums.

Hey 'gigs- do you have any pictures of this thing? It sounds like something mutant brewed up in a toxic waste dump- and I mean that in a good way!

[The Big Ben]

Meinl makes some pretty nice front-action valve sections but they are also pretty expensive.

Yeah. 'Reliable sources' have told me they were a little over $1500 before the dollar tanked and less if you bought four or more sets.

---

If you want to do it as a project, have at it. Far be it for me to tell a guy not to walk that tightrope between success and a pile of steaming crap. It seems to me that playing the 24/5 J as is would be enough. I kinda like top loaders. Maybe add a fifth valve?

[The Big Ben]

[img]http://home.earthlink.net/~bk111111/sit ... rpictures/
forthvalveUntitled-1.jpg[/img]
If this works, it will show the four banger I built . If you want to see a doubelled euphonium with five valves, you're out of luck. I don't have such a picture. They do show up on EBay ocosaionally.

That came out OK- good job! 66 hours is a lot of time to put it but it loos to be worth the effort.

[jeopardymaster]

I bought a 25J from Sam Gnagey about 10 years ago with the planned objective to do exactly what you've described - turn it around and make it a monstrous big front-action CC. I had visions of a horn that would be nearly a 7/4 - as if there could be such a thing. Trouble is, it played so beautifully as it was that I couldn't bear to take such a chance. David Gilbreath has had it now for almost a year and I hope it is as good to him as it was to me.

So a while back I found a 28J that, I'm told, LB Oliver added a new valve set to. This horn was to be cut to CC - but again it didn't happen because it was such a nice BBb. I'll dig up a link to it when I get a chance. Sold that one through Dillon Music last year.

So the short answer - or request - is: If you find a few dogs and chop them up, what the heck. But please don't take a GOOD BBb and turn it into a carcass.

[NDSPTuba]

That martin Oberloh did is beautiful, wow.

Goodgigs,
is that pic a picture of two 20J valves sets turned into one 4V front action. If so how did you redirect the tubing coming out of the valves to accommodate the front action? Looks good, how does it play.

[J.c. Sherman]

I think it's a cool idea - I've had the same. I've been holdin onto a 20K sousa section for a while. I keep hoping a 20J will wonder in to allow me to buy it and attack it!

I would use the three valve section and buy a single rotory valve for the 4th (perfect 4th) valve. I've always thought you don't need a 5th for a BBb, and it would be a breeze and much faster and less expensive to do it that way. That's my hope, anyway...

J.c.S.

[NDSPTuba]

So the short answer - or request - is: If you find a few dogs and chop them up, what the heck. But please don't take a GOOD BBb and turn it into a carcass.

I promise I won't hack up a good example of any instrument for the sake of this project.

[NDSPTuba]

hello all
So what dose ndsptuba stand for any way - North Dekota State Principal Tuba ?

NDSP comes from my younger days when I was into cars and street racing. There was a group of us that would go out to the street races from the North Dallas area and one night some some old racer called us the North Dallas Street Punks. So we shortened it to NDSP. I've used it for my username on the internet every since.