The Generation Gap

[Rick Denney]

This is an open plea to young'uns and old'uns alike.

Please stop targeting each other for flames. I am not policing anything, and I am not an ubermoderator. I am just expressing an opinion that when young people disrespect old people (or new posters disrespect regular posters), the overall quality of Tubenet diminishes for me. But the old ones also need to realize that sophomores will behave...sophomorically, and new folks will not yet understand the flavor of the group. I prefer leadership by (even if imperfect) example to sarcasm.

Young'uns and newbies: You earn no bonus points for posting 15 times a day instead of 2 or 3. Listening is an important skill. Try to limit what you say to what you personally know to be true, and try not to ask questions unanswerable by anyone who has never heard you play. Think first.

Old ones and regular: Even when the young'uns don't follow my advice (as if my advice has any real value), don't lower the boom on them. Subtlety earns bonus points, and gentle leadership turns people around instead of entrenching bad behavior.

There are at this moment several pairs of combatants lining up their sights on each other. I recommend that you do not pull the trigger. As a debate tactic, it often doesn't work and you might find the barrel of your gun is plugged at the end, resulting in backfire.

I hasten to add that I have pulled the trigger a few times myself. The most frequent result was that nobody "won" and even when I out-debated (or out-typed) the other person I gained no satisfaction from the exchange.

I'm writing this in the Tubenet forum instead of off-topic, because that's where most readers read and we can't talk about music or tubas if folks are going to be brittle.

I usually don't offer such complaints. But I reserve the right to express this opinion once every five years or so, subject to moderator tolerance. And do what you want, but recognize that the tuba community is small, and when you annoy old ones or taunt young ones, these may be people on whom you depend at some point in the future.

Rick "in rare sarcasm overload" Denney

[PWtuba]

(as if my advice has any real value)

It certainly does, Rick.

[windshieldbug]

Woodsheddin'

Could this be made into a sticky?

Very well said.

Respect and courtesy are two-way streets.

Second.

RC

...and posters, please check you egos at the door!

[WoodSheddin]

Woodsheddin'

Could this be made into a sticky?

Very well said.

Respect and courtesy are two-way streets.

No.

I see the problem from the exact opposite perspective. Several people with hundreds or even thousands of posts who somehow think prolificacy and wisdom are interchangeable.

This Senior to Freshman hazing reinforces the Good Ole Boy Network while driving off people who came here with genuine interest and left because they did not feel the desire to play these people's self indulgent games.

[BriceT]

Woodsheddin'

Could this be made into a sticky?

Very well said.

Respect and courtesy are two-way streets.

No.

I see the problem from the exact opposite perspective. Several people with hundreds or even thousands of posts who somehow think prolificacy and wisdom are interchangeable.

This Senior to Freshman hazing reinforces the Good Ole Boy Network while driving off people who came here with genuine interest and left because they did not feel the desire to play these people's self indulgent games.

This is very valid. Anyone notice that tubashaman hasn't been posting in a while? I wonder why...

[Todd S. Malicoate]

My take on all this:

This topic seems to rear it's head yearly, and always about this time of year. The cry is always how TubeNet is becoming more and more uncivil...the "good ol' boys" and regular posters here don't show enough respect for others...the general tone is just plain mean.

I see things from the opposite point of view...more and more people just can't stand to be disagreed with. People post their question, or their playing, or their point-of-view and ask for opinions. Sometimes, when they receive an opinion they disagree with (even one...no matter how respectfully or courteously that opinion is offered), they start with the whining and the excuses.

No one posting here is correct all the time (God knows I've made my share of mistakes), but, on the other hand, there is a great deal of good advice given here that is not-so-subtly dismissed as mean, rude, or otherwise out-of-bounds. A difference of opinion is often read as mean-spirited, even when the emotion wasn't intended...a learned perspective is often offered and rejected by a fragile ego who only wants to hear "good job."

I'm not sure what prompted Rick Denney to start this thread...I browse the forums pretty regularly and haven't seen "several pairs of combatants lining up their sights on each other." If I've missed them, I would agree with his advice that flame wars rarely solve anything and only promote hard feelings. A simple "agree to disagree" is much simpler, and perfectly reasonable...the variety of perspective is one of the things that makes discussions like we have here so valuable.

As always, feel free to PM me if you think I'm way off base (or the source of some of the problems)...I will be happy to listen to any concerns. Heck, post them in the open forum if you wish...you won't offend me. That being said, I don't see a "crisis" on TubeNet. For any small problems the forum has, the benefits far outweigh them.

Todd S. "who thinks more posts should say 'yeah, I see what you're saying...I just don't agree with it'" Malicoate

[sungfw]

This is very valid. Anyone notice that tubashaman hasn't been posting in a while? I wonder why...

Not to be snarky, but ... ACU's final exams were last week, so with the semester over, maybe he's gone home for the summer?

[rocksanddirt]

as a full on newbie here, but not either young, a student, a professional musician, or anything else that might be appropriate for tubenet....this is one of the most polite, supportive, and helpful forums I've been involved with.

That said, folks really get on tubashaman it seems, simply because he has the enthusiasm, and inexperience of youth coupled with a pretty solid technical knowlege of how to play the horn. I hope he continues to participate, and just blocks or ignores the oldsters who irritate him.

[Yosef: Tubist]

I don't really see much of a problem with most of the a$$ holes out there.

Here's how I see it...
When an older, more experienced professional is mean, they are in fact hindering the potential learning that this board should offer, instead of trying to teach the younger(students) they tend to force their opinions down their throats. Most times this results in that poster not learning anything from the topic at hand, even if they are entirely wrong.

When the younger inexperienced students are mean, they are doing it because they think that have something to prove to people. They want to show everyone how much they know, they're being mean to show off. This is what the music business is, its a whole lot of ego surrounding something that we (hopefully all agree on) love very much. We are passionate about making music and (hopefully) want to share our passion with others. Most people shed this ego as more experience comes. They eventually learn that having a thick shelled ego, will keep others from trying to help, they extricate themselves from the group.

When the young'ens post rude offensive comments, it is because of an ignorant ego

When the old'ens post rude offensive comments, its because they aren't open to new convention, they don't like change, or they just want to gang up on little kids(I don't think this is it though) think most time the old guys have good intentions, but their intentions are skewed by hasty, not thought out posts.

From what I gather, most of the older users here have full time jobs as well as this AWESOME hobby that we all have in common. They are a lot busier than I am as a student. They get off from a stressful day at work, come here (where they enjoy staying in "the loop" of the tuba playing community) and read ignorant, uninformed posts by young, ignorant, uninformed posters, and they quickly jump down the throats of these posters (but not on purpose)

The young guys are just kids, that need to shed their ego, after all... Every single one of us has had some pride issues (in regards to music or else) that have gotten in the way of friendships. Humility is something that every one learns some time!!

Daniel "who thinks that some people come here for learning, some come for entertainment, but regardless we all come here because of the tuba" Knox

[Todd S. Malicoate]

just havent been posting on here because:

Its full of alot of jerks.

And so is life...and certainly the music business.

The oldies dont think a young person knows anything. Alot of times, especially when i was in HS, students knew more than the director.

I don't think a young person (such as yourself) doesn't know anything...I just think you presume to know more than people who've already traveled the road you're traveling now. The second sentence of your above paragraph illustrates that very well.

The oldies here that are pros and what not....dont listen, people like Wade and Scooby do, but they are rare. I noticed in our Jazz position opening faculty tryouts, the guy thats 25 and finishing his masters knew ALOT more than the guy with his doctorate and has his own bigband. Though nerves might have applied or something

All you know for sure is that the younger guy appeared to do a better job to you. Don't presume to know what the guy with his doctorate knows.

...the students are getting smarter, and pushing professors and academica more, or so i notice here in competitive texas.

This may be true, but one thing I've noticed teaching high school students privately for 20+ years...the students certainly don't question their own brilliance nearly as much as they used to. Superior ratings are certainly flowing off the vine like milk and honey around here.

Another thing is that this forum with all the jerks and such, kind of force the fact that the older members and heavy posters are right and what they say goes.....and that they are right, while it isnt right all the time.

Nobody can "force" the fact that they are right...a forum is a place mostly for sharing of opinion, with the occasional "fact" thrown in. Make up your own mind, and don't worry about whether strangers on the internet agree with you so dang much.

Us students in college are learning stuff still, fresh on our minds. The oldies have experience and many years (sometimes) of lab experience where we dont have

Exactly. The "oldies" have experience that you don't. Listening to them might be beneficial.

Look, James...this isn't a competition between young and old. It's a forum for sharing of ideas, and everyone's style of expressing those ideas is different. I'm sorry you think people who are trying to help you are "jerks." You come off to me as someone who is looking for a pat on the back more than a reality check. If saying that makes me a "jerk", then so be it. I'll sleep just fine tonight.

For the rest of the forum folks who think this is too harsh, or "flaming", or "mean"...I can only defend my words by saying how much I truly wish someone had been as forward with me when I was the big fish in the tiny pond.

[Nick Pierce]

My two cents: I am a senior in high school, and I agree with Wade, Todd and the other grumpy old men more often than not. I've been watching these little fire fights, and I would say that the old farts have always had excellent points, and the vast majority of the time what they've said has been true. Do they say it harshly? Yeah. I'll probably do the same thing some day (my favorite show is House). I think it has less to do with older folks jumping down throats and more to do with younger folks not knowing how to take criticism well. Also, my guess would be that these veterans got to the place they are at because they recieved similar tough love, learned how to take it like men, and came out on the other side the successful, professional musicians they are. If it worked well for them, than it will work well for the next generation as well. That all sound about right? Or do I need to clarify?

[rocksanddirt]

exactly, tubashaman.

In the real world, in all phases of it, there are a surprizingly large number of 'professionals' with extrordinarily crappy attitudes.

[Yosef: Tubist]

I think it has less to do with older folks jumping down throats and more to do with younger folks not knowing how to take criticism well.

When I said "jumping down throats", I wasn't refering to the men that you are. I was refering to the ones that are unnecessarily mean and who post rude offensive posts, these don't come very often. And like I said, I don't think the men that do those things do it on purpose. I have no problem with either the young butt holes or the old ones. Like I said, I think the young ones are going through learning processes and the old ones are just trying to help.

My post doesn't apply to all young tuba players or all old tuba players. It is simply stating the way I've interpreted things I've read and impressions I get of the people who wrote them.

[Nick Pierce]

Agreed, Yosef, sorry for the mix up. I just focus on posts by those guys (bloke, Wade, Todd, etc.) because I realize the value of their opinion. And I enjoy their methods of delivery.

[Rick Denney]

Sean is right. I was aiming my missive as much at we regulars as at the newbies and young'uns. We take aim too eagerly, and run 'em off before they have a chance to learn their way.

But it's also true that they sometimes just beg to be treated that way. We should be tougher than that, though, and not be goaded into the mud pit. We might find that in truth, we are goading ourselves.

As to how Tubenet stacks up to other forums, I put it in the Big Middle. The mail list devoted to restoring GMC motorhomes is more genuinely helpful, but those guys are mostly older and they don't mince words. On the other hand, the readers are also older and have thick skin, and everyone gets along.

The forum devoted to ex-Soviet photography equipment is getting rather sleepy because of the digital photography revolution. But it has very few flame wars and the people on that list are all old friends, by choice. Again, not too many young'uns. (I moderate that forum and have never voiced any complaint about what's been written there--ever.)

By far the worst are the ham radio forums. If you think Tubenet is uncivil, then I invite you to go to http://www.qrz.com" target="_blank" target="_blank and read the "Talk and Opinions" forum for a couple of days. Amazing. After a couple of months of being bloodied every time I wrote something, I said "who needs this?" and bolted. I was the newbie there, and I hope newbies to Tubenet don't see Tubenet the same way. I fear some do.

Tubenet is not less civil than it was nine years ago when I started reading it. I can still remember clearly Mike Sanders writing to a currently (somewhat) active member, "Where's your humanity, man?" And I remember being absolutely dismembered for challenging some (unsupported) assertions about Berlioz by a high-end professional from Europe. We got over it. But many of those pros are gone now, and people like me are probably part of the reason. Tubenet is no less civil, but it is less erudite.

Yes, respect is a two-way street. But there is a special obligation to the regulars to take the high road. We alone can show leadership and set a good example. It's our choice.

It's also a matter of self-perception, and I'm as guilty as anyone. I know that I have done everything I'm complaining about, and more than once. But I'm not the only delusional one. At least a couple of the combatants of which I spoke have responded in this thread. You don't know who you are, heh, heh. We tend to see our exchanges from our own point of view, and sometimes the view from the other side isn't quite what we think it is. Again, the regulars should be best equipped to understand this.

You can't control what another guy writes in Tubenet. But you can control what you write. Sometimes we (and I don't mean "we" in the passive-aggressive sense--I include myself with complete conviction) become focused one what's wrong with the other guy, or even just with the other guy's words. Frankly, that's between him and God. We should worry more about keeping our side of the street clean. That doesn't mean to never challenge what people say, of course, but we should do with the respect we feel we should receive in return. I have found that the more respectful I am, the more respect I receive. That's also something that should not have to be explained to the regulars.

So, those of you who thought I was complaining mainly about the newbies, you are incorrect. Those who thought I was complaining mainly about the Good Old Boys, you are also incorrect. I was complaining about both, but with special emphasis towards the regulars because they have the most control and the best understanding of how to lead positively within the Tubenet environment. As anyone who has rank will tell you, the responsibilities outweigh the privileges.

The rain must be getting to me. I need to take a chill pill and stop complaining. Like I said, it doesn't happen often.

One last thing: I have zero authority on Tubenet. The only tool of persuasion I possess is the strength of my ideas and how I express them, imperfect thought those tools may be. That is as it should be. Sean and the moderators can't go on rants like this even if they wanted to, because they do have authority and consequently they can be threatening. Thus, I hope to persuade because I have no authority to enforce anything, and thank goodness for that. Do what you want. Like all forums, it is what the posters make of it. The moderators can't do much more than keep out stuff that might get our host in legal trouble.

Rick "submitted for gracious consideration" Denney

[Rick Denney]

But there are several people I see playing their instruments, conducting, teaching, ect. who DONT enjoy or have enthuiasm for their musical field.

When the Tubameisters played at Fiesta Texas, we played eight shows a day outdoors in Texas heat for 35 straight weekends. We played the same tunes hundreds of times. Surely this is a formula for burnout. But we all look back on that experiences as a high point in our lives as musicians. Yes, even with the fake lederhosen. That said, we had a long list of favorite complaints that we aired to ourselves over and over.

Don't confuse grousing about the business of music with having lost one's love of the music itself. Human beings are sinful and can usually find a way to make anything go wrong. Nature of the beast.

I know teachers who are weary to the point of depression with their teaching. But the weariness is imposed by the school administrations, the parents, and society, who provides too little support and too many expectations. But once you scratch through the crust, you'll find these people still genuinely care about their students, even if they don't seem to, and even when their students couldn't care less. It takes a little experience to learn how to recognize this, but you know it's true because you feel it with your teachers.

But even the crustiest old-fart teacher will know when to put the tools of sarcasm down and let their real compassion show a bit more. I'm just thinking it would be good if this happened more.

Now, since you can't control what the old guys do, see what you can clean up your side of the street. If you can learn that life lesson, you'll be better off than about 90% of who you meet. And I am giving you that bit of advice for free. Ain't the Internet grand?

I can tell when I've posted too often, because people start to show signs of irritation with what I say. Resident Genius matters not a damn. Thousands of posts: Means nothing. When I push it (as I am surely doing in this thread), folks push back. That's when I cool it for a while. "Oops--went too far. Time to let it rest a while and go do something else for a few days." Note that I can come to that conclusion without thinking they are right.

Rick "who should quite while he's behind" Denney

[The Big Ben]

By far the worst are the ham radio forums. If you think Tubenet is uncivil, then I invite you to go to http://www.qrz.com" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank and read the "Talk and Opinions" forum for a couple of days. Amazing. After a couple of months of being bloodied every time I wrote something, I said "who needs this?" and bolted. I was the newbie there, and I hope newbies to Tubenet don't see Tubenet the same way. I fear some do.

Unfortunately, I've found ham groups similar. The "Everyone must learn Morse Code because We Had To Learn Morse Code" gang has just about killed the hobby even though Morse Code testing is not needed any more to enter the hobby. There still are grades of testing but discussion of that is for another place and day. Interesting survey fact: the actual use on the air of Morse Code has not gone down the end of testing. Also, many people are still learning code even though it is not required. Ham clubs are finding that their classes for code instruction are full and the people who are there are actually learning code because they want to use it, not just to be able to fill in the check box on the license form.

I have found TubeNet fairly welcoming. Of course, I've done these sorts of groups since the 80's and approached it the same as I used to do with a Usenet group or a new community bulletin board. I lurked as a guest for about a month and, when I figured out how the whole thing worked and who was who, I joined. I've tried to offer opinions and try to support them as best I can. I have had wonderful PMs about tuba playing that really wouldn't have been appropriate for the open forum. I try to post about what I think I know about and don't get upset when I'm called to task for something I said. I'm smart enough to handle it and learn from it if I actually was wrong.

A good analogy can come from ham radio: The person who is successful in getting the most contacts from all parts of the world talks 10% of the time and listens 90% of the time. Would that many of this august group develop such a ratio.

[Rick Denney]

The "Everyone must learn Morse Code because We Had To Learn Morse Code" gang has just about killed the hobby even though Morse Code testing is not needed any more to enter the hobby. There still are grades of testing but discussion of that is for another place and day.

I really wound them up. I tested all the way to Extra in one day, and then compounded the felony by getting a vanity call--outside my call area. That I had an extra-class license before owning an HF radio sent several of the long-time hams over the edge, heh, heh. But they are nicer in person. And I didn't disagree with many of the old'uns. I just didn't appreciate their disrespectful expression.

I keep trying to learn code but life keeps getting in the way. I'm about a third of the way through the alphabet using the Koch method (at 20 WPM), but I have no faith in what I can receive. Much more practice needed, but then there's that life thing. If I'm going to practice like that, I'd rather it be long tones on the tuba. But late at night when I can't play the horn, going down and heating up the soldering iron is sometimes just the right thing. I listen far more than I talk, but I get yelled at for that. "How are you going to get operating experience if you don't get in a contest and call CQ?" A lot of what I hear late at night doesn't warrant much participation, heh, heh.

Seeing how the ham radio forums treat new people is part of what opened my eyes to the same tendencies (though FAR milder) on Tubenet. It's a natural reaction but we old farts have to be above that.

Rick "20-meter phone band captain at upcoming Field Day" Denney

[tbn.al]

[quote="tuben

Look, I actively like just a few people on there and actively dislike no one. This just isn't worth getting too worked up about. Everyone needs to be willing to take criticism and able to say, "I was wrong, thanks."

RC[/quote]

There you go, being sensible again.

[Steve Marcus]

One word: SEARCH.

TubeNet is not just a forum for discussion; it is a treasure trove of information, advice, and experience. If one has a question about anything related to the subjects covered on TubeNet, the first thing to do (especially for a newbie) is to use the SEARCH function. It's amazing how much you'll learn from what has already been posted over the years on TubeNet. You also avoid embarrassing yourself by clogging up the forums with questions that have already been asked umpteen times.

SEAN: Prior to the changeover to this new format of the forum, one could search OLD TubeNet (posts prior to 2003) by entering the search at the upper left hand corner of the screen (instead of the standard search function which results in only more recent posts). How does one search OLD TubeNet now?