Do you change ?

[ubq]

.... your embouchure in the mittle register? I always tend to play my F on the 4th line with two different lip positions - depending on the music I play. It is hard to play a one octave scale solwly from the F below the stuff, cause my embouchure changes at E in the 3rd space - it means that my lower lip goes behind my upper lip and I cant controll it at all. And it's very-very hard to play octave changes as well....With this position I can play very well in the higher tessitura but the change seems to be out of controll.... I have the buzzing book from James Thompson, and he writes that there are - on the trumpet- two points where the position of the lips changes - in treble clef at the 2nd line G and at the 4th space E. Is it the same with you on the tuba? Or you can play with one "allround" position?

Thanks for any comment!!

[MikeMason]

I'll throw out my opinion,but its just one opinion by one guy,and this is a somewhat debatable subject.I think most players have some point in their high and low registers where some form of shift is needed.IMO,the goal is to push that point of shift as far up and down as possible.The more range you can play without the shift,the better.There are many players who shift a lot,and with great,near-seamless technique.A shift point can provide security in the extreme registers,but you have to make sure the tone quality stays consistent and the shift is not apparent to your listeners/audience.Experiment,record yourself,and find what works for you.

[eupher61]

I agree that there has to be a shift at some point, but that shift point probably shouldn't be in the bread n butter range. Gene Pokorny says you have to be able to play a certain amount in the pedal range, and just above, with BOTH embouchure settings, so you can get in and out of that range quickly and easily. So, his point of change is low.

I personally use a jaw thrust and pull idea, so the jaw is always moving but the lips themselves stay pretty much put. Hopefully, ideally. I'd say my only real change in chops setup is in the bottom, too.

[ubq]

Thank you for your opinions!

[tuba kitchen]

I have exactly this problem as well, and I have experienced it at different degrees all through my career. Generally, I have to "prepare" my embouchure to go above an e or f in the staff, or if I'm playing high to come back down. This is not usually a problem if I am relatively in shape. If I'm not in shape the sound above the e or f becomes a bit thinner, and i miss more notes.

At one point, I was able to get rid of this shift completely when I practiced the Carmine Caruso method every day for 20 minutes.

[MaryAnn]

This topic is addressed in fascinating detail if you google Jeff Smiley and Balanced Embouchure.
MA

[ubq]

Yes I heard earlier about the Jeff Smiley method. The gliss exercises are very good for the high register. My problem is in the mittle register. My former teacher in Germany told me to play with pushing out tounge (outside the lips) and pulling it back for attacking the tone. He said it's the "german method" (but of course this is not true..) Anyway I practice it a lot, and it brought big difficulties in my playing.

About the Jeff Smiley method, here is one example from the youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMlWRbWj ... re=related" target="_blank

Thanks

[Haugan]

I can recall a masterclass/clinic in the early 70s where some student inquired to Arnold Jacobs about "embrochure change". Jacob's response was "If you don't change your embrochure, you won't change the note!" A lot more to this simple admonition than initially meets the ear......The earlier posted directive to simply maintain the best tone quality throughout a series of of registers and musical challanges will eventually "smooth out" the most gymnastic gesticulations of a "non conventional" embrochure. It may take some time, but a "perfect embrochure" is the product of perfect tone production, not vice verca. You can have a "Farkas Book" ("The Art of Brass Playing" - Former Chicago Symphony Solo Hornist Phillip Farkas' treatise on the brass players embrochure -complete with 'Visualizer" analysis of numerous hornists as well as C.S.O. brass section members in the mid 60's) perfect embrochure, and without vibration, such an embrochure produces silence. Go for the greatest amount of resonance and vibration on each and every note you play, and don't look in a mirror while you play for the next six months. Surprise yourself with a look now and then thereafter, and your newfound focus on result rather than cause will be noticed by you as well as those around you in your ease of playing and overall improved performance. Happy practicing!

[jonesbrass]

At one point, very early in my playing days, I used a different embouchure position to get pedal tones below pedal BBb, involving repositioning my lips on the mouthpiece to allow only my lower lip to vibrate inside the mouthpiece.

Now I dind that I don't move my mouthpiece on my embouchure at all - so I'm not quite sure what people are calling an embouchure "shift." On my F, I play from the lowest pedals to my high range with the same mouthpiece position, although I'm sure that some things are going on the inside of the mouthpiece that allow me to play higher or lower. Wide interval slurs will tell right away if you can manuver well enough, "shift" or not. (Think Bach Cello Suites, or the Arban's interval studies)

[jonesbrass]

. . . to simply maintain the best tone quality throughout a series of of registers and musical challanges will eventually "smooth out" the most gymnastic gesticulations of a "non conventional" embrochure. It may take some time, but a "perfect embrochure" is the product of perfect tone production, not vice verca.

Exactly.

[ubq]

I'm aware of this method, and find it very useful to try to keep the best possible sound quality trough the entire range. But somehow the different registers - each with their beuatiflest sound - are very hard to connect, for example during playing just a simple scale.
Music - sound - has to be first, and ABOVE all, no question! This is what I neglect in many methods, which simply forget the fact that we are MUSICIANS. I can play beautifuly the 4th space G, beaudtifuly the 4th line F, but to play the one after the other is very difficult. (One, or two octave higher is no problem, only here in the Money range...

Thanks for your comments!!!

[MaryAnn]

Can you play the two notes going down? Like from G down to F? Is it only trying to play going up, from F to G, that is the problem?

Or do they sound terrible by themselves? If you can play high but not in the middle....your embouchure is too tight and you need to loosen it up and use more air to get the note. There is an optimal "mix" of air+tension to get a good sound. Oftentimes when people are having trouble they are using too much tension and not enough air. Sometimes it is the opposite, but not with people who play high ok.

In short, try blowing harder and see what happens. If you have played a brass instrument that uses a smaller mouthpiece and you are trying to learn tuba, it will take some time (a few months) to get a good sound with the larger mouthpiece.

MA

[Alex C]

With all due respect to the answers yuou have received so far, if you want an expert opinion go to an expert player and ask.

There is a difference, I believe, between the "shift" in embouchure you are talking about and the embouchure changing for every note. It can be hard to understand the difference even if you are in the studio talking to a teacher who understands and can explain it.

So, I have a suggestion: email Stacy Baker at Morehead state and ask her. I have met her two or three times and heard her play twice and I believe that she is an outstanding performer on tuba. I heard a lot of tuba playing at ITEC, Stacy stands out.

Her recital was sparsely attended and she was mostly having fun playing new pieces but OMG, that gal can play!