Complete Newby Looking for Advice

[zootsuitbass]

Hi


I'm a 41 yr old thinking about taking up the tuba. I play double bass and electric bass. I'm a solid musician in the Jazz/R&B type of scene. I have a strong education/ foundation for that type of music.


I have many questions........ Please bare with me. I tried a search, Didn't come up with anything.



Tuba or Sousaphone? Coming from my world I'd prefer to own a sousaphone,Why not?


Easier to play/learn vrs big tone? Is there a trade off?


What is a good, used, instrument that would retain it's value and encourage a good learning curve? I can afford and understand that a good instrument will encourage me but I don't want to get something silly for my level or lack of.


Mouthpiece, Whats the deal with the sizes?


I have many more questions...........


Please, give me of any constructive advice.



Thanks!

[iiipopes]

You'll get a lot of advice, and some of it contradictory. But I'll start with some generalities.

Tuba or Sousaphone? Coming from my world I'd prefer to own a sousaphone,Why not?

Easier to play/learn vrs big tone? Is there a trade off?

A BBb tuba and a BBb sousaphone are basically the same instrument. The main difference being that you carry one and wear the other. That said, a tuba is usually more portable as it is "wrapped" tighter, and the bell on a standard BBb regular sized tuba is anywhere from 17 to 20 inches or so, while a sousaphone bell is 24 to 26 inches in diameter.

What is a good, used, instrument that would retain it's value and encourage a good learning curve? I can afford and understand that a good instrument will encourage me but I don't want to get something silly for my level or lack of.

The standard answer is to start with a used Miraphone 186 if you like rotors, or a used King 1241 if you like pistons, and go from there as your playing develops and you come to have a preference for a particular style of tuba. With your leanings towards jazz, which may include dixieland, in your case I'd lean more towards the King 1241, as it has a smaller bore, which means marginally easier to blow, durable, has good intonation, has been made in its basic form for about a century, so parts are easy to get if the worst happens. Please consider going ahead and getting a 4-valve to start, and not a 3-valve, as you are already an experienced musician, so you will appreciate the better intonation that a 4-valve instrument will do for you.

Mouthpiece, Whats the deal with the sizes?

Just like suits on a rack in a clothing store. Everybody's face and embouchure is slightly different, just like everybody's body size and shape is different, so just like a 42 regular suit won't fit everybody, so the store usually carries a range of say, 38 to 48 in regular, short and tall sizes in stock as a standard selection, there are different sizes of mouthpieces for different embouchures and shadings of tone.

That said, if you get a King 1241 or similar instrument, and you are a guy with a fairly average face size and lip size, start with a common mouthpiece like a Conn 120S Helleberg model, which a lot of people play and get good results out of. It matches up well to a King 1241, and after you've played it awhile you can start analyzing your playing to see if it's really doing a good job for you, or if it has a deficiency somewhere that once you've identified where you want to go, you can change mouthpieces later, if at all.

Also, a lot of used King 1241 instruments have a detachable bell -- it puts on and takes off with thumbscrews. The reason I mention this with you is that depending on your gigs, you might want both: an upright bell for classical or community band gigs, and the forward facing "recording" bell (kind of like a sousaphone) for outdoor, jazz and dixieland gigs.

I have many more questions...........

Please, give me of any constructive advice.

Bring them on! That's what we're all here for. Welcome to tuba playing!

Thanks!

You're welcome.

[Alex F]

Crap! I was composing a lengthy welcome post praising the vast body of knowledge that TubeNet can offer, my post got trashed. Meanwhile, iiipopes beat me to it.

No worries . . . WELCOME TO TUBENET !!!

[Nick Pierce]

A fiberglass sousaphone? Eek!

[zootsuitbass]

Hi


Thanks for the welcome and the info!


About the King 1241, what do they go for used? (from a steal to what is too much but allot ask for). There's one on ebay for 2300, it's from a dealer so I assume thats the upper end?

What would be good questions to ask a seller to inquire about the condition/upkeep of a used instrument be?

Besides a case are there accessories that I should be hoping for?


Are sousaphones uncomfortable or impossible to practice sitting?

Do sousaphone owners for the most part own and shed on tubas and bring out the sousaphone?


Going fiberglass, I assume if their easy to pick up.... they might be difficult to unload? Is there truth in that? If so I'd rather put more money in to something that would be more desirable in the marketplace.


Thanks!

[Brendan Bohnhorst]

About the King 1241, what do they go for used? (from a steal to what is too much but allot ask for). There's one on ebay for 2300, it's from a dealer so I assume thats the upper end?

I have seen King 1241's (three valve) sell in beat up, but playable, condition for as low as $500. I can tell you that $2300 is more than I would recommend someone pay for a three valve tuba.

What would be good questions to ask a seller to inquire about the condition/upkeep of a used instrument be?

I really think that sitting down with a tuba player and having him/her try the tuba will tell you a lot about it. Some tubas can be "stuffy" for a variety of reasons. "Stuffy" meaning notes don't center to well. Dents in the leadpipe, misaligned valves, ect.

Besides a case are there accessories that I should be hoping for?

See if they will include the mouthpiece. If its a dealer, they probably will. A private seller usually does too.

Are sousaphones uncomfortable or impossible to practice sitting?
Do sousaphone owners for the most part own and shed on tubas and bring out the sousaphone?

Some people use special chairs to use a sousaphone while sitting down. They are made by a company called Wagner. I have never really found them to be that comfortable. Some guys on the forum play sousaphone for a living, and use their tubas a lot less frequently. So maybe they can chip in a little more about comfort and practice.

Going fiberglass, I assume if their easy to pick up.... they might be difficult to unload? Is there truth in that? If so I'd rather put more money in to something that would be more desirable in the marketplace.

Think more along the lines of have a bunch of them on the market. All the different brands play similar, and won't hold back a beginner. They are easy to find, inexpensive to purchase, and easy to sell should you decide to buy a different tuba or stop playing.

Good luck, and welcome to TubeNet!

[zootsuitbass]

Thanks of the advice.

I was focusing on the 1241 because of the advice of iipopes but....it's a four valve?



http://cgi.ebay.com/King-Bellfront-4-va ... dZViewItem" target="_blank



Still too much I assume,they are a dealer......Assuming this was a good thing for me... what do I want to pay?




Aj

[iiipopes]

It's probably not a bad price, but check with some of the guys who post to and sponsor the forum first to see what they think, including Dan Schultz who works on a lot of horns at his website the villagetinker.com , bloke, Dan Oberloh, Lee Stofer, and others that I can't think of right now. Each of them plays, and might have a suitable horn for you. In addition, other guys with great reputations who can steer you towards a proper instrument are Matt @ Dillon Music and Dave @ Baltimore Brass, Roger Lewis, Sam Gnagny, and others, who all post to the forum occasionally. Vince at Tuba Exchange is helpful also, although he'll try to sell you an new St Pete first, since that is his main line. If you can't get to a place to actually try out a tuba, consulting and shopping with these guys can keep you from getting an unsuitable tuba for a bad price.

Ebay is always risky. Even if the seller is legit, which the one you mention probably is, there is always the shipping factor and the unknown playability factor. The guys mentioned above are all tuba players, so they will be able to tell you how a horn plays and be better able to help you select a proper instrument for you starting out. There may be other instruments that would also be a good horn for you, the King 1241 is just the one I happened to think of first off the top of my head for the reasons stated that it might be a good fit for you. These other guys can tell you more, as they are all very familiar not only with the King 1241, but other brands and models of tubas that I have not played.

As far as the particular tuba listed, assuming it is in good playable condition, I'd see if for that price he'd include the second bell off the 3-valve horn he also has for sale, and relist the 3-valve horn with just one bell.

The fact that Dillon Music right now has a Bundy fiberglass souzy for $695 should tell you everything about fiberglass souzy resale. Yes, having played souzys in almost all situations, they are a pain to play sitting down, because you cannot lean back with the horn over your back and shoulder. Unless your gig is a standing gig, I think you'd be better off with a tuba in the long run. I only use a souzy for outdoor gigs and one other gig that is on a stage that has the usual heavy curtains and the really tall ceiling with the theatrical backdrops, so that if I used a conventional upright bell, the sound would all get soaked up by the raised backdrops and never get off the stage out front. Even then, I'm still pushing all I can just to be heard in the auditorium.

If you really get into tuba, and especially into the jazz & dixieland gigs, you will probably have more than one eventually, as a lot of us on the forum do. But start with a tuba first.

[DonShirer]

One small suggestion to add to the good advice above:
You say you often work in the jazz genre. If you plan to play with a dixieland group, most often the bass players tend to use a sousaphone, particularly if they stand or walk around to play. (I'm an exception, I use a tuba with a strap. It's just not as convenient as a sousy but I like the fourth valve that's hard to find on sousaphones.)

[imperialbari]

Welcome among the low conical brasses!

What has been said all has its bearing. I should be with bloke in the sousaphone recommendation as I am a sousaphone freak myself, but when I take a look on which musical experiences you have, then it’s all there. But for one: you look like a person mostly used to think in concert pitch = You may not have much experience with the concept of transposition.

All tubas, all brasses for that matter, have an inner overtone logic within the key of their root note of the open bugle. Many of us having been with brasses in 4 or more decades usually have been around instruments in F, Bb, or Eb. Some learn their fingering by memory. Others, like myself, more or less are concert pitch persons transposing as needed.

If you choose a tuba in CC, the logic of the instrument and of its notation/your-thinking-in-concert-pitch will be congruent.

If you will use your tuba in amplified environments, you won’t have to go for a large instrument. Sousaphones in CC are so rare, that you can forget about finding one. And if you will have to take your tuba around a lot, a smaller instrument with a fixed bell is the easiest to deal with. A 4-valve CC tuba would give you the same range downwards as your 4-string bass with only the low F needing special attention in form of a slide pull.

The advice of a Miraphone 186 isn’t bad, but you could go smaller with Miraphone as well as with other makers. The Yamaha YCB 621 would be good, but is expensive. Its Weril look-alike isn’t at the same level, but then comes more affordable.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[iiipopes]

(I'm an exception, I use a tuba with a strap. It's just not as convenient as a sousy but I like the fourth valve that's hard to find on sousaphones.)

The way I deal with that is to play a Conn souzy, and I've had the upper loop of the 1st valve tubing converted to a movable slide, just line on a tuba, so I can play C & low F 1&3 with a good pull so they won't be sharp -- the main reason for getting a 4 valve tuba.

[zootsuitbass]

Thanks so much guys..... I haven't bought yet.



Aj

[Nick Pierce]

I've managed to get the C's and B's pretty close to in tune on a Conn Sousa by having the third valve slide pulled out a bunch and the first valve slide pulled out a lot, and I think the result was a more or less in tune horn. If you go with a sousaphone, I'd go there, but I personally prefer concert horns. I've played standing up without a strap, just craddling the horn on my left arm sort of, if that works for you. And of the concert horns that have been discussed thus far, I think (don't know for sure, haven't tried it) that the King is more compact than the others and would be the easiest to hold.

My $.02.

[rocksanddirt]

Welcome and good luck!

all the advice so far seems pretty solid, the one piece I would add is to read up on cleaning what ever you end up with thouroughly before you really settle down to learn to play it (if it's a used horn). There are some astounding stories of what has come out of old horns that folks have told here....

[MaryAnn]

Klaus made a good point about the different keys of tubas using different fingerings for the same notes. (sort of like if you tuned your electric bass down a whole step, you'd have to use different frets for the same notes.) However, I don't really agree that because of your concert pitch orientation that you should consider a CC tuba; my reason for choosing a CC tuba would be more that if you play mostly in sharp keys, that the fingerings would be less complex. But the lack of expense for a starter BBb tuba/sousa is more likely to be the deciding factor for you. Learning new fingerings really isn't all that big a deal; it just takes time.

MA

[Tabor]

Hello,

To answer one of your questions, I primarily play the tuba and bring out the sousa when needed. Mostly because the sousa projects so well that it is really too loud for in-house playing most of the time. I have had gigs where one was requested over another, and of course if you plan to walk around or march at all, the sousa is the way to go. Someone recommended old, full-stroke Conn sousas. I will second that. I have a Conn 32k and couldn't be happier as far as sousas go. I think they are about as comfortable as a brass sousa gets, if you can find one of these at a reasonable price http://www.xs4all.nl/~cderksen/Conn32K1943image.html

The literature indicated that it is ideal for long and tiring engagements. I used mine last year in a four-hour italian band concert that was kicked off with a 2-3 block procession. I usually use a Helleberg-style mouthpiece with this horn.

Tabor

[zootsuitbass]

Hi


What's up with a 3/4? is that size similar to string instruments?


viewtopic.php?f=4&t=28576" target="_blank


Thanks for the help.



Aj

[Donn]

What's up with a 3/4? is that size similar to string instruments?

No - it isn't like string bass, where 3/4 is the normal size. Nor is it as well defined. Most models mentioned above are 4/4 size, I'd say. An inexpensive 3/4 tuba would be fine to learn on, and might be very nice to have around - we don't have to tell you what a nuisance a big instrument can be sometimes.

I'm with Bloke up to a point, sousaphone makes all kinds of sense. I'm not so sure that the appearance of the instrument will be immaterial, to audiences or fellow musicians, but he may have interesting ideas about psychedelic paint jobs, depending on how his own experiments in that area went.

Three valves will do just fine, and Bb is the right key. I am a concert pitch type myself, as I think we all tend to be whose instruments are primarily of the bass variety. You will learn that the lowest open note is a Bb, the next higher an F, and so forth. If you chose a C tuba for some reason, those notes would be C, G, etc., and it would be no easier or harder. Except that you'd have an easier time playing with stringed instruments whose open strings are E A D G, etc., where the Bb tuba is more like other wind instruments.

You can play sousaphone sitting down.

If you're lucky, your sousaphone will come with a Conn 2 mouthpiece.

[Dean E]

. . . . the one piece I would add is to read up on cleaning what ever you end up with thouroughly before you really settle down to learn to play it (if it's a used horn). There are some astounding stories of what has come out of old horns that folks have told here....

I agree about checking for obstructions inside a horn.

Two other issues that can make a good (used) horn difficult to play:

1. Leaks
-- a. Valves
-- b. solder joints everywhere
-- c. ill-fitting lower & upper (gooseneck) leadpipes on sousas
-- d. water keys

2. Old horns set up for high pitch (A = 444 or higher) have to be worked on to bring them into modern pitch. The old tuning slides simply cannot be pushed in.

Also, a trip to Baltimore, NJ/NYC, or northern Indiana puts you close to a wide assortment of used instruments and expert personnel. I'm only personally familiar with shops in those three areas. I'm sure there are other great shops elsewhere in the US.

A good introduction to the equipment and technical aspects of the tuba family is found in Harvey Phillips' "Art of Tuba and Euphonium."
http://www.amazon.com/Art-Tuba-Euphoniu ... 0874876826" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

[Rick Denney]

Lessee...bunch of unanswered questions (not all of which have been articulated...yet).

The King 1241 is an older model with four valves. The three-valve version of the same instrument is a 1240. They have interchangeable bells and can be found with either upright or forward bells. The going rate, in my view, for a playable 1241 is in the $1500 to $2000 range if it doesn't look too bad. They are a bit more with upright bells, and a bit less with forward bells. The 1240 is considerably cheaper.

The 2341 in new, short style with fixed upright bell, is the modern version of this instrument, and it is excellent. That's a great tuba for jazz work if you want something newer and shinier (and more expensive).

Of the older used sousaphone, I prefer the Conn 14K, which is brass but little if any heavier than the 36K fiberglass model. Beyond that, I agree with bloke's advice on that. But I don't like sousaphones for purely ergonomic reasons--my shoulders just aren't shaped right to provide a comfortable place for the instrument to rest. You can get sousaphone chairs that will support the instrument while playing it seated. But I still prefer tubas for most work.

On the subject of pricing, if you buy a used fiberglass sousaphone for $600, you'll be able to sell it for $600 to someone just like yourself when the time comes, if you have maintained it in the same condition. Old sousaphones have depreciated all they are going to. Because of the bias against fiberglass, it may take a bit longer to find a buyer, but I bet not. I'd much rather have an old 36K Conn (made by Conn in the old Conn factory) than a modern anything, even in plastic. The reason to buy a used tuba is that you won't know what you want until you gain some experience, so buy something that is solidly playable and that has withstood the test of time. Then, when you are ready to move on, sell it for what you paid for it. Consider it free rental with a substantial security deposit. Warning: It's not always easy to sell a tuba. They reveal qualities that undermine the motivation to sell them. That's how I ended up with eight of them, even though I still managed to sell a couple.

On the subject of tuba sizes, 4/4 is just a tuba. 5/4 is a big tuba. 6/4 is a really big tuba. 3/4 is a student model, with few exceptions. The 1241 and modern 2341 are 4/4 instruments. The Conn 14K is what I would call a 4/4 sousaphone. There are no standards for these designations and tuba sizes and shapes vary so much as to render them confusing at best. Here are some pictures to give you an idea of the relative sizes:

http://www.rickdenney.com/tubas_compared.htm

On the subject of the pitch of the instrument, stick with Bb. It will fit with the Bb trombone and Bb trumpets in jazz bands, and it will be the cheapest to buy and the easiest to resell at a later time. C tubas are mostly used by pros and pro wannabes, and are thus built and priced for people willing to pay much more. But many jazz tuba players still use Bb instruments. All sousaphones are either in Bb or Eb, with only custom, one-off exceptions. Stick with Bb. You might find a sousaphone for well under a grand or something like a 1241 for well under two grand, but any C tuba at that price will have been backed over by a car. Nobody in the audience (or in the rest of the band) will know or care.

On the subject of accessories, just get a vanilla mouthpiece (an 18 or a Helleberg, as others have recommended), and save the rest of your money for at least a few lessons from a local pro tuba player. As Wade says, lots of tuba players need to double on bass to pay the bills, so you might even be able to trade out bass lessons for tuba lessons. But my advice is to study with a real pro--someone who makes a sound you consider worthy of emulating. Many pros actually like teaching adult beginners--they listen, they have a work ethic, they are fun to talk to, and their checks don't bounce.

If you buy a used tuba, get it chem-cleaned and that will also take care of all the required adjustments, water-key corks, valve felts, and so on. Get some valve oil and slide grease. Apply the valve oil before every session.

One day soon, you will pick up whatever you buy, and you will play a low Bb. For the first time, you'll really feed it air properly, and you'll really nail the frequency of the buzz, and the instrument will resonate the whole house. You'll feel a thrill--you spine will tingle and your hair will stand on end. Be warned: that sound will get inside your head and eat your brain. You'll find yourself yawning at the prospect of playing your string bass.

Rick "afflicted thusly" Denney