Student Loans...

[Richardrichard9]

What are some of the considerations that go into student loans? Can everyone get one? Do they favor certain majors according to the job market? And will my parent's Credit affect my chance of getting one?

[iiipopes]

Are you still in high school? If so, your school guidance counselor should be able to answer all of these questions. If not, the financial aid department of the college or university of your choice should be able to answer all of these questions.

And it would not be out of line, as a matter of fact I encourage, for you to ask the colleges you are considering about scholarship and grant opportunities, both music department related and in general, to help lighten the load.

At most colleges, literally tens of thousands of dollars of would be scholarships and grants, even if for only a few bucks, go without being granted because nobody bothered to step up to the plate to simply ask.

Good luck! Oh, yeah, in answer to your general question, my friends with children starting college say it's pretty easy to get a student loan. But since I'm not sure that these decades later there isn't a bit of student loan in my refinanced mortgage, try for the scholarships and grants first.

[MikeMason]

Student loans should be a last resort.They will limit your future options.If you have a big student loan payment,you will always have to look for higher paying situations(usually not playing music) instead of situations you would enjoy the most.Student loans and IRS debt are the 2 forms of debt you can never get rid of,not even with bankruptcy.Exhaust every possible option first.For God's sake,don't rack up 80k of debt getting a performance degree from a Conservatory.The vast majority of orchestras in this country pay around 80-100$ per service,usually around 40-50 services a year,and their are still very competitive auditions even for these gigs.You will end up working in corporate America to pay these mandatory loan payments back instead of possibly putting together a freelance musician's life of playing,teaching,repairing,selling,etc.,which you may find more rewarding.If you're not good enough to get a full ride to a decent college with a real tuba teacher,you need to stop now and really think things through.Now,this is a general statement about student loans,which may not pertain to your situation.I heard a caller to a financial radio show I listen to,The Dave Ramsey Show(highly recommended),call with this exact situation.She was a bassoonist from a name brand conservatory with 100k in student loan debt.She had gotten married and had a baby(or vice versa) and was making around 350.00 per month with the local per-service orchestra.Her husband called in totally exasperated with the situation as the reality of those huge student loan payments settled in.He was going to have to work 2 jobs to keep his young family afloat.Think carefully young-uns...

[Doug@GT]

What are some of the considerations that go into student loans?

a. What is the expected value of the degree (estimated income with the degree minus estimated income without the degree or with another degree*)?

b. What is the expected cost of the loan (net present value of payments plus interest)?

If b < a, get the loan. If a < b, don't.

*i.e., getting classes out of the way in a joint-enrollment program, getting a two-year degree at local (good + cheap) community college first, going to a public university in-state, or going somewhere/studying something that will give you a scholarship, among others

[Todd S. Malicoate]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmNzA86Ji00

[Tom Waid]

Are you still in high school? If so, your school guidance counselor should be able to answer all of these questions. If not, the financial aid department of the college or university of your choice should be able to answer all of these questions.

And it would not be out of line, as a matter of fact I encourage, for you to ask the colleges you are considering about scholarship and grant opportunities, both music department related and in general, to help lighten the load.

At most colleges, literally tens of thousands of dollars of would be scholarships and grants, even if for only a few bucks, go without being granted because nobody bothered to step up to the plate to simply ask.

Good luck! Oh, yeah, in answer to your general question, my friends with children starting college say it's pretty easy to get a student loan. But since I'm not sure that these decades later there isn't a bit of student loan in my refinanced mortgage, try for the scholarships and grants first.

This is very good advice. I can only add that you should not direct your efforts to only one college. Apply to many and see who gives you the best financial aid package along with the most compatable learning environment. Every school has financial aid counselor; talk to them.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Alot of loans require payment 6 months after graduationa nd offer payment plans and such

Maybe your loans require that, but it is misleading to the OP to say "Alot of loans" require payment that soon after graduation...ever heard of "loan deferment"???

Doug had some great advice on this...apply his formula to your situation. Search the site and find the average salary for a tuba player who is playing in a semi-pro orchestra (c'mon, you aren't gonna win a big job right out of school...trust me, "Master's in Tuba Performance" won't even get you past the resume round of many smaller group auditions) and teaching on the side. Realize that having that $5K-$10K gig and a semi-full private studio is best case...you will very likely have to get a "day job" to make ends meet.

Buying a tuba with student loans...why didn't I think of that? Checking my balance at Sallie Mae, I'm glad I didn't.

Todd S. "(with apologies to Bloke) dream-killer-in-training" Malicoate

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Work part-time during school (about 20 hours a week is a breeze...mostly on weekends).

Work like a dog during the summer...you can do 60 hours a week easily and save up lots of $$$. Or, practice hard and make a summer program that pays like Disney or Busch Gardens and save that money.

Leave the huge loans for the party animals.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

If you can play tenor trombone or electric bass, you could work during the summers on a cruise ship.

Yeah, if you can just play them, you can get a gig on a cruise ship. It's that easy.

Note to Bob concerning getting a cruise ship gig: You'd better be pretty dang good, be able to sightread like a pro, and have some decent improv chops.

I will likely buy a horn with student loans, but it should only be about 5000 and I'm pretty sure I will be able to prove that I need it as I don't have a tuba now.

Pssst...Bob...that's not quite as easy as it sounds, either...

[Todd S. Malicoate]

I don't have a problem with you, either, Bob. In fact, I rather enjoy what you have to say on here, even though I occasionally disagree with your perspective. I find it to be irresponsible to tell a high school student:

"If you can play tenor trombone or electric bass, you could work during the summers on a cruise ship."

After all, you did just say you couldn't get the gig because you can't handle the high stuff. The high school student in question is a tuba player, just learning bass trombone. I thought it was important to point out that you can't just show up and get such a gig.

I also couldn't tell if you were aware that there is more to being approved for a larger-than-needed student loan than proving you need a tuba. "Not having a tuba now" is not proof that you should be loaned an extra $5000 above your need, even when we're talking about Uncle Sam. You can't borrow more than your cost of attendance minus the amount of any Federal Pell Grant you're eligible for and minus any other financial aid you'll get...the trick will be showing that the cost of a tuba should be included in the cost of attendance.

Apparently, some people have been able to pull that off without a hitch...the US Government is easier to fool than your run-of-the-mill bank loan officer, I should say. Personally, I know the whole concept of "needing a tuba for school" is complete bullshit, since I was able to earn a masters degree having never owned my own horn.

Sorry if you feel "lectured" to...this is a place to talk about such things. If you disagree with what I say, no problem...just chill on the melodramatics. I'm always interested in hearing what you have to say.

[Biggs]

I have never been to a party, but i do go to a private school

Then what's the point? I think you are approaching college a little too seriously. I hereby invite you to my best friend's 21st birthday on August 18th. PM me for driving directions to my apartment.

[MikeMason]

Personally, I know the whole concept of "needing a tuba for school" is complete bullshit, since I was able to earn a masters degree having never owned my own horn.


Todd,just to keep it real, how's that no horn master's working out for you?Owning a horn is a sign of resourcefulness and commitment,2 of the many prerequisites for making it as a tuba player.I think a few IMHO's and this works for me's might go a long way coming from an auto parts salesman with 2 tuba degrees.I ,myself,never finished my degree and make about 95% of my bread selling instruments and 5% playing and teaching.I want everyone to know where I'm coming from when I comment or advise.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Todd,just to keep it real, how's that no horn master's working out for you?Owning a horn is a sign of resourcefulness and commitment,2 of the many prerequisites for making it as a tuba player.I think a few IMHO's and this works for me's might go a long way coming from an auto parts salesman with 2 tuba degrees.I ,myself,never finished my degree and make about 95% of my bread selling instruments and 5% playing and teaching.I want everyone to know where I'm coming from when I comment or advise.

Mike, it's working out fine for me, thanks for asking. I somehow was able to get a fine education even on school horns.

Owning a horn shows resourcefulness and commitment? I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. To me, a student who buys an expensive instrument like a tuba knowing full well the chances of ever getting paid to play that instrument shows poor judgment.

Everything I write is, of course, "in my humble opinion." Putting the acronym after a statement doesn't change that...it's extraneous. Frankly, I'm tired of my opinions being belittled because I sell auto parts for a living. This elitist bullshit of having to have a "professional" by your name in order to be allowed comment by some people is nonsense. I have opinions shaped by many years of study and a very serious commitment to tuba playing...I just didn't win an audition. If you disagree with me, fine...make an argument and I'll be happy to listen. Just leave my day job out of it.

And just so you know where I'm "coming from", I make 50% of my "bread" working for an auto parts company. The other half comes mostly from accompanying university students, and also from composing/arranging and teaching. Is it OK if I make comments from time to time now?

Todd S. "what do you want, a resume?" Malicoate

[Biggs]

Just to keep it fake, I'm Gene Pokorny and I play with a little group called the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. Maybe you've heard of us?

[MikeMason]

We're not really arguing over whether a tuba performance major should own a tuba are we?This does not apply to ed.majors who probably should be buying a flute,clarinet,and a trumpet instead.No honest work is without dignity.A man supporting his family in any job is part of the definition of a real man in my book.My problem is the very definitive,matter of fact way,"i'm right and if you disagree you're stupid" tone I'm reading in some posts."Needing a tuba to be a tuba performance major is bullshit" is an opinion.One many if not most of us would disagree with.It sounds to me like you're holding up your personal story as an example to aspiring tuba perf. majors as proof that you don't need to own a tuba to achieve this.I certainly would not advise younguns to party too much,not make it to 8am theory and thus not finish their degrees,even though things have worked out fairly well for me despite my stupidity.I have missed out on several good opportunities to teach at a couple colleges adjunct because of this.The quintet I play with is 4 DMA's and me.I hang with them fairly well,but I do have my regrets.

[Biggs]

biggs, where are you from lol

Like I said, PM me for directions to the party!

[Todd S. Malicoate]

We're not really arguing over whether a tuba performance major should own a tuba are we?

Actually, yes we are. My argument is that way too many buy them way too early in their studies. I'll agree that it is a better situation for a serious student to own their own instrument(s), but we are talking specifically here about using student loan money to obtain it (them).

My problem is the very definitive,matter of fact way,"i'm right and if you disagree you're stupid" tone I'm reading in some posts.

Only you can control the intent you read into words on a monitor...there is no "tone" other than the one your inner voice provides. I know what I mean when I write...if you need clarification, please feel free to ask. I've certainly never said such a thing, nor do I believe it. So perhaps you might consider that the tone isn't as definitive as you think.

"Needing a tuba to be a tuba performance major is bullshit" is an opinion.One many if not most of us would disagree with.

As I mentioned in my last post, everything written here is an opinion. Feel free to disagree. I'm not going to take the time to add "I think" or "IMHO" to every sentence I write on this forum.

It sounds to me like you're holding up your personal story as an example to aspiring tuba perf. majors as proof that you don't need to own a tuba to achieve this.

Again, it "sounds to you" like that. I provided my, admittedly anecdotal, experience as proof that you don't have to own an instrument to be a performance major. Wade echoed as much. No one is saying it's "bad" to own your own horn...I'm just saying it's not necessarily a requirement. Certainly not worth an extra $20K or so of extra debt for a couple of horns.

Let's cut to the crux of the matter, and I'll try to be crystal clear. I submit that most (not all) high school students and undergraduate college students who buy their own tubas do so for their own pleasure, not for any real or imagined "requirement." Using student loan money for such a purpose is, in my opinion, a financial mistake with long-lasting consequences. It is also, to me, borderline on morally wrong. People can certainly disagree, and it's clear that some here do. I hope that we can continue to have a civilized conversation about this and other issues without thinking those who disagree with our point are somehow condescending or rude.

No ill will is intended, or should be implied. I simply feel rather strongly about this issue.

[MikeMason]

I'll try to let this be my last post on this subject.If the goal is only to get a master's in tuba performance,then maybe.If the goal is to be a professional performer(as the degree would imply),then you're swimming very upstream in an already near impossible task.I realize things were a bit different back in our day.Aside-I about dropped my teeth when a 10th grader walked out on stage for district contest with a new silver Thor.Aspiring performers are not competing against the standard in the late '80s.You'll be hard pressed to find more than a couple school horns in most state's top all-state bands or orchestras.I know a full time pro orchestra player who switched from a perfectly good rotary horn to the same horn with pistons to a bigger better horn all to chase that last 1 or 2% to win the next bigger better gig.This guy was already a very wonderful player.Having good equipment is essential.There are always exceptions.As far as the loans,I'm generally against.I'm more a fan of the "property ladder"approach.Start with a 3k used CC that you bust your *** to get.Next add a 2-2.5k f.Get great deals and continue to upgrade during undergrad(as your peers bail out and unload their gear).You'll eventually end up with good sounding/playing horns that are paid for.If you win the gig,you may learn that your hard won gear is actually better than some of the horns du jour.

[Dean]

A good used horn will rarely lose any value.


Some get sold for a few hundred $$$ more than they were bought....

[Todd S. Malicoate]

I find the lack of helpfulness on this thread and others dissapointing. More and more, I am seeing a legitimate question or comment ignored in favor of pushing personal opinions as fact. Richard's question was specific, and did not warrant the digressions it received.

What are some of the considerations that go into student loans?

It seems to me that trying to warn Richard about the dangers of over-borrowing toward a music performance degree is most certainly a consideration he should be aware of. The points brought up in this thread are ones he won't hear from school advisors, since they obviously want him to come to their university and spend his money there. Over-borrowing is a real problem for many college students, and, unfortunately, rarely does anyone warn them about it while it is happening. All those lending organizations you mentioned are more than happy to put funds in the student's hands...knowing full well they'll eventually receive 150% or more back for their generosity.

Your hanging a shiny new tuba or laptop out there as trinkets is completely irresponsible. The fact that it's easy to get student aid money to pay for them speaks to the increasing irresponsibility of society in general to earn what they get. There I go with my opinion again.

Pushing personal opinions as fact? This argument is growing tiresome. For illustration, how about plucking a few quotes from your last post?

• The most important thing is that they're all still government aid and always your first stop.
  These are a last resort [private student loans], but more and more frequently a necessary one.
  These schools [Julliard and the like] offer connections and great experience that are hard to quantify.

Are these opinions or facts? How can the posting community here better serve the readers by distinguishing the two? The answer is they can't...it's up to the reader to decide for him/herself, just like everywhere else on the internet.

Richard's question was as broad as it could possibly be, and the responses have been germane to that original post, your "disappointment" notwithstanding. Please stop trying to "clean up" this forum. We don't need the thought police in here.