Sousa=permanent back problems???

[Nick Pierce]

A student in the marching band I'm teching tells me that he went to see the doctor about some back pains, and was informed that the sousa was bending his spine, that he isn't supposed to have more than 20 pounds on his torso and that he can't use a sousa ever again. Any medically savvy tubenetters who would know? Legitimate concern/correct diagnosis or a load of crap?

[Todd S. Malicoate]

First and foremost, I wouldn't necessarily take the student's word for what the doctor did or didn't say. You need something in writing. It could just be a way of getting out of playing in band.

Assuming that is what the doctor said, the student needs to get a second opinion from another doctor.

Discount any advice you get from anyone on here, whether they are "medically savvy" or not. How could anyone make a diagnosis without ever seeing the student in question?

If you're asking if it's possible that the student has enough spine/back damage to warrant never playing sousaphone again, the answer is of course yes.

If you're asking if said damage was done by playing the sousaphone, then, again, no one here could possibly know for sure. I would think how the (alleged) damage occurred really isn't the main issue, though.

I'm always amused at how many folks get a diagnosis they don't like and think that it may be because the doctor is full of it (not that I'm saying that's what you're doing...I just hear that sort of thing from folks a lot). I suppose that's possible, too, but I think it's very unlikely.

[iiipopes]

Indeed. Get with the parents and get it in writing from the Doctor, even if you have to have the parents or the student sign a HIPAA release to get it. I hate to say it, but it's a CYA thing so you can go forward accordingly.

[Tom Holtz]

And get me that doctor's phone number!

[GC]

When I went for my draft physical in 1970, the doctor looked at my chest x-ray and said, "Looks like either you're a mailman or you play a Sousaphone, and you look too young to be a mailman." My left collarbone and shoulder blade and the top two ribs were slightly displaced downward.

I used a fairly light Sousaphone (an unusually well-playing Reynolds) my last two years in high school during marching band and as much of concert band as I could get away with. I don't know if the weight of the Souzy was as much problem as my poor posture; I slumped to relieve the weight a lot of the time. If I had always stood up and sat properly, I might've had less of a problem.

[ASTuba]

Although legitimate physical limitations do occur, my experience has been that kids who have sat on their butts for 14 years playing video games and eating chips go into shock when they're handed a sousaphone. This shock goes away once they get in the swing of things.

Hey I resemble that remark!!!

[Kayla]

My second year of marching sousaphone we were punished by running a lap with our instruments, and I tripped and ended up on my back with the sousaphone on me. Then we went on a long parade, my back became injured again. It happened again when I was going down parade bleachers, and I miscalculated a step and the weight smashed down and my back hurt again.

It still hurts, but I also work almost full time and I was in a rear end car accident since I've marched. I wouldn't say that sousaphones will automatically give permanent back problems, just that special attention should be paid to the players in terms of proper stance and wearing of the instrument, and realization that you cannot be clumsy (my big problem). Most of my problems would have been solved had I known correct ways, but my band director didn't know much about brass instruments (perc./voice person).

[Nick Pierce]

Another overwhelming response from Tubenet, thanks guys, you're the greatest.

The kid has only marched one year, so I'll ask if there's been any accidents as Kayla described, but I think the shock of not sitting down playing video games may be the main thing, as diagnosed by Dr. Scooby. I'll ask him to get a second opinion as well, and I'll definitely give the section a talk on correct posture and its dangers, courtesy of Mr. GC.

Well, back to the hunt!

[Leland]

Tom, looks like you guys are enjoying yourselves.

When I went for my draft physical in 1970, the doctor looked at my chest x-ray and said, "Looks like either you're a mailman or you play a Sousaphone, and you look too young to be a mailman." My left collarbone and shoulder blade and the top two ribs were slightly displaced downward.

When I went in for my physical at MEPS, it came to my turn to have the doctor hear my breathing. The doc (probably in his 70's) put his stethoscope on my chest and said to inhale and exhale fully. I breathed in, and he immediately looks up and goes, "What instrument do you play?" I answered, "Tuba," after exhaling. I asked him later why he knew I played, and he said that wind players breathe completely differently from everyone else.

Anyway...

Permanent back problems? Possibly, if the player is sedentary and has no core strength, and if he/she has been using bad posture (which can even come from bad foot technique). Along with the talk about good posture, have the kids start exercising, especially in core strengthening (planks, pushups, ab exercises, etc). If this is band camp, include this stuff in morning stretches.

[sungfw]

Permanent back problems? Possibly, if the player is sedentary and has no core strength, and if he/she has been using bad posture (which can even come from bad foot technique)

Or if the player has a pre-existing condition such as scoliosis, stenosis, herniation, spondylolisthesis, etc.

[Nick Pierce]

Permanent back problems? Possibly, if the player is sedentary and has no core strength, and if he/she has been using bad posture (which can even come from bad foot technique)

Or if the player has a pre-existing condition such as scoliosis, stenosis, herniation, spondylolisthesis, etc.

Unfortunately that may be the case. The kid claims (yes, I know what that means) that someone in his family had one of those, some random offshoot relative, and that basic back problems run in the family or something. Still not sure whether or not to believe him/or the doctor. Thanks guys, you rock.

[imperialbari]

No big deal. Just offer the student an alternative:

He can march the triangle in stead of the sousaphone. The offer includes that he even will be relieved of the weight of the uniform, as triangles always are marched in pink tutus.


Or more seriously: How important is it for the band, that this student marches exactly the sousaphone? Is the tuba/sousaphone his own choice in the first place?

A member of TubeNet, who now makes a living marching the sousaphone, marched the trombone during some of his school years, as he did not want to schlep around a sousaphone. No slander, as he has told the story himself. And a bass trombone can be a quite effective carrier of a the bass line in marches.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[imperialbari]

Maybe my reserve band will let me march with an Eb helicon (was planning on MEPS this Friday, but might be next week instead), instead. Or a circular valved bass trombone (I remember Klaus saying he had one in low Eb!)!

Not my instrument best documented in photos. Small bore, small shank mouthpiece like the small tenor valve trombones. Full circle (as opposed to the Conn Eb sousaphones with their fake tubing at the left shoulder support plate) and with a fairly long leadpipe/tuning slide this instrument does not allow much space for a grown up person inside it. If I exhale fully I can put my right hand to the pistons. Any real playing would have to happen with my left hand. And it is not, soundwise, the kind of bass trombone I referred to in my previous posting. It has a much narrower sound that a real double valve Bb bassbone.

But for a young player it could be the right thing.

Klaus

[sungfw]

The kid claims (yes, I know what that means) that someone in his family had one of those, some random offshoot relative, and that basic back problems run in the family or something. Still not sure whether or not to believe him/or the doctor

Hello??? It doesn't matter whether or not you believe them. Doesn't even matter whether or not what the kid or doctor say is true. The only thing that matters is the picture the kid's lawyer's gonna paint for the jury:

Kid claims bad back.

Kid informs band director he has a bad back.

Kid's band director blows off kid's doctor and sticks kid on sousa AND goes on public BBS and questions kid's manhood and doctor's competence.

Kid aggravates back marching with Sousa.

Kid sues.

Kid's lawyer whips out x-rays of the kid's back and a transcript of this thread.

How's THAT gonna look to a jury?

But, hey, if you wanna put your azz on the line, be my guest.

[TubaCoopa]

While this wouldn't fix back problems, I've found that copper pipe insulation (from your local hardware store) works wonders for that knot that forms on your shoulder from sousa.

[Leland]

Permanent back problems? Possibly, if the player is sedentary and has no core strength, and if he/she has been using bad posture (which can even come from bad foot technique)

Or if the player has a pre-existing condition such as scoliosis, stenosis, herniation, spondylolisthesis, etc.

Ah, true.

Although I was nearly misdiagnosed with scoliosis back in middle school. Turns out that it was only because I'd lay sideways in front of the TV the same direction every day after school. Thanks to my mom's eagle eye (noticing that my spine's laying-down curve was the same as what the doc's X-ray showed), I laid the opposite direction for the two weeks until the followup appointment, and the next X-ray showed that my spine was straight.

No back brace, no surgically installed rod. She probably saved my yet-to-be-discovered music career.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Hello??? It doesn't matter whether or not you believe them. Doesn't even matter whether or not what the kid or doctor say is true. The only thing that matters is the picture the kid's lawyer's gonna paint for the jury

Wow...I doubt Nick is planning on forcing the young man to carry a sousaphone in his band, so I'm struggling to see where a lawsuit might come into play...particularly one that would go far enough to involve a jury. Ridiculous to jump to such a conclusion.

Kids lie all the time about things like this...if I were Nick, I would have a talk with the young man to try and figure out what his motivation is. Does he want to switch to a different instrument? Does he not like band for some reason? Let's not forget that it's also possible that he really does have a back problem...you could always work with him and see if he'd like to contribute in another way.

But, hey, if you wanna put your azz on the line, be my guest.

Teachers do put their collective "azzes" on the line every day...you might try thanking one of them sometime.

[Leland]

Dr. Mom with the prescription to "flip over, Leland..." Awesome!

That's great... I actually laughed out loud.

The doctor couldn't believe it when she told him. Here's the story --

Like every school, it came time for our school nurse to do some screenings, and scoliosis was one of them. She had me lean forward & touch my toes (I think I could do it back then, too), and noticed that, with my head down and back up, one side of my ribcage was tilted up higher than the other. I think she had my mom take a look, and recommended that I see a chiropractor.

So, we get to the chiropractor's office, and he verified what the nurse saw. He took some X-rays, made some measurements, and talked with me & my mom about what I might need to correct my (apparently) S-shaped spine. I could wear one of those braces that I used to see, with a hip support and aluminum struts connected to a chin support. I might also need a rod installed in my back, bolted between my upper and lower back, to keep things aligned.

(shudder!) Ugh. This was not looking good. Just thinking about it makes my back hurt.

We went home, and as usual, I plopped down sideways in front of the TV with some juice and cheese & peanut butter crackers, ready for some 3-2-1 Contact on PBS. She looked at my back, and with her artist-trained eye, saw the exact S-shape that the doctor was showing us in his X-ray. She told me to try laying the other direction for a while, so I did -- and it really felt weird, actually. But, I stayed in the new direction, and we went back to the chiropractor a couple weeks later.

He was dumbfounded. My "S" was completely gone, and my ribcage wasn't rotated like before. He still recommended that I get another checkup, but Mom told him that it would be unnecessary, and explained what had happened. He just wouldn't believe it, but we never went back to see him again.

Score another one for Mom.

That experience suggested to me that many childhood back problems are likely due to posture and/or physical conditioning.

[Leland]

What I would do...

Contact the parents - but don't say "Mr. & Mrs. Smith, Johnny says his doctor told him he can't play sousaphone anymore; is that true?". I'd say something more like: "Mr. & Mrs. Smith, since Johnny can't play sousaphone any more, we need to find something else for him to play. Would it be possible for me to speak with his doctor so I can get a better idea of his limitations?"

There - you didn't impugn anyone's honesty, you come off looking like a caring person (which you are, of course), and if Johnny is full of cr*p, you'll find out really quickly.

That sounds like the winning plan to me.

[mclaugh]

Hello??? It doesn't matter whether or not you believe them. Doesn't even matter whether or not what the kid or doctor say is true. The only thing that matters is the picture the kid's lawyer's gonna paint for the jury

Wow...I doubt Nick is planning on forcing the young man to carry a sousaphone in his band, so I'm stuggling to see where a lawsuit might come into play...particularly one that would go far enough to involve a jury. Ridiculous to jump to such a conclusion.

Sounds like you need a remedial course in reading comprehension:

The kid has only marched one year, so I'll ask if there's been any accidents as Kayla described, but I think the shock of not sitting down playing video games may be the main thing, as diagnosed by Dr. Scooby. I'll ask him to get a second opinion as well, and I'll definitely give the section a talk on correct posture and its dangers, courtesy of Mr. GC.

Ain't no legitimate reason for Nick to have the kid get a second opinion if he's NOT planning on making the kid continue playing sousa.