Sousa=permanent back problems???

[sungfw]

The kid claims (yes, I know what that means) that someone in his family had one of those, some random offshoot relative, and that basic back problems run in the family or something. Still not sure whether or not to believe him/or the doctor

Hello??? It doesn't matter whether or not you believe them. Doesn't even matter whether or not what the kid or doctor say is true. The only thing that matters is the picture the kid's lawyer's gonna paint for the jury:

Kid claims bad back.

Kid informs band director he has a bad back.

Kid's band director blows off kid's doctor and sticks kid on sousa AND goes on public BBS and questions kid's manhood and doctor's competence.

Kid aggravates back marching with Sousa.

Kid sues.

Kid's lawyer whips out x-rays of the kid's back and a transcript of this thread.

How's THAT gonna look to a jury?

But, hey, if you wanna put your azz on the line, be my guest.

[TubaCoopa]

While this wouldn't fix back problems, I've found that copper pipe insulation (from your local hardware store) works wonders for that knot that forms on your shoulder from sousa.

[Leland]

Permanent back problems? Possibly, if the player is sedentary and has no core strength, and if he/she has been using bad posture (which can even come from bad foot technique)

Or if the player has a pre-existing condition such as scoliosis, stenosis, herniation, spondylolisthesis, etc.

Ah, true.

Although I was nearly misdiagnosed with scoliosis back in middle school. Turns out that it was only because I'd lay sideways in front of the TV the same direction every day after school. Thanks to my mom's eagle eye (noticing that my spine's laying-down curve was the same as what the doc's X-ray showed), I laid the opposite direction for the two weeks until the followup appointment, and the next X-ray showed that my spine was straight.

No back brace, no surgically installed rod. She probably saved my yet-to-be-discovered music career.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Hello??? It doesn't matter whether or not you believe them. Doesn't even matter whether or not what the kid or doctor say is true. The only thing that matters is the picture the kid's lawyer's gonna paint for the jury

Wow...I doubt Nick is planning on forcing the young man to carry a sousaphone in his band, so I'm struggling to see where a lawsuit might come into play...particularly one that would go far enough to involve a jury. Ridiculous to jump to such a conclusion.

Kids lie all the time about things like this...if I were Nick, I would have a talk with the young man to try and figure out what his motivation is. Does he want to switch to a different instrument? Does he not like band for some reason? Let's not forget that it's also possible that he really does have a back problem...you could always work with him and see if he'd like to contribute in another way.

But, hey, if you wanna put your azz on the line, be my guest.

Teachers do put their collective "azzes" on the line every day...you might try thanking one of them sometime.

[Leland]

Dr. Mom with the prescription to "flip over, Leland..." Awesome!

That's great... I actually laughed out loud.

The doctor couldn't believe it when she told him. Here's the story --

Like every school, it came time for our school nurse to do some screenings, and scoliosis was one of them. She had me lean forward & touch my toes (I think I could do it back then, too), and noticed that, with my head down and back up, one side of my ribcage was tilted up higher than the other. I think she had my mom take a look, and recommended that I see a chiropractor.

So, we get to the chiropractor's office, and he verified what the nurse saw. He took some X-rays, made some measurements, and talked with me & my mom about what I might need to correct my (apparently) S-shaped spine. I could wear one of those braces that I used to see, with a hip support and aluminum struts connected to a chin support. I might also need a rod installed in my back, bolted between my upper and lower back, to keep things aligned.

(shudder!) Ugh. This was not looking good. Just thinking about it makes my back hurt.

We went home, and as usual, I plopped down sideways in front of the TV with some juice and cheese & peanut butter crackers, ready for some 3-2-1 Contact on PBS. She looked at my back, and with her artist-trained eye, saw the exact S-shape that the doctor was showing us in his X-ray. She told me to try laying the other direction for a while, so I did -- and it really felt weird, actually. But, I stayed in the new direction, and we went back to the chiropractor a couple weeks later.

He was dumbfounded. My "S" was completely gone, and my ribcage wasn't rotated like before. He still recommended that I get another checkup, but Mom told him that it would be unnecessary, and explained what had happened. He just wouldn't believe it, but we never went back to see him again.

Score another one for Mom.

That experience suggested to me that many childhood back problems are likely due to posture and/or physical conditioning.

[Leland]

What I would do...

Contact the parents - but don't say "Mr. & Mrs. Smith, Johnny says his doctor told him he can't play sousaphone anymore; is that true?". I'd say something more like: "Mr. & Mrs. Smith, since Johnny can't play sousaphone any more, we need to find something else for him to play. Would it be possible for me to speak with his doctor so I can get a better idea of his limitations?"

There - you didn't impugn anyone's honesty, you come off looking like a caring person (which you are, of course), and if Johnny is full of cr*p, you'll find out really quickly.

That sounds like the winning plan to me.

[mclaugh]

Hello??? It doesn't matter whether or not you believe them. Doesn't even matter whether or not what the kid or doctor say is true. The only thing that matters is the picture the kid's lawyer's gonna paint for the jury

Wow...I doubt Nick is planning on forcing the young man to carry a sousaphone in his band, so I'm stuggling to see where a lawsuit might come into play...particularly one that would go far enough to involve a jury. Ridiculous to jump to such a conclusion.

Sounds like you need a remedial course in reading comprehension:

The kid has only marched one year, so I'll ask if there's been any accidents as Kayla described, but I think the shock of not sitting down playing video games may be the main thing, as diagnosed by Dr. Scooby. I'll ask him to get a second opinion as well, and I'll definitely give the section a talk on correct posture and its dangers, courtesy of Mr. GC.

Ain't no legitimate reason for Nick to have the kid get a second opinion if he's NOT planning on making the kid continue playing sousa.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Sounds like you need a remedial course in reading comprehension

My reading comprehension is just fine, thank you. What an incredibly rude thing to say. There is very little context in this whole story, and Nick Pierce has never said anything about making the kid march with a sousaphone. You are jumping to conclusions. I'm quite sure that as an experienced educator, Mr. Pierce knows better than to try and force a kid to play in band at all. I'm still waiting for more backstory...is he a problem kid anyway? Lazy? The story the kid is telling is fishy at best, and sounds made-up to get out of playing sousaphone. Can you really imagine a doctor telling a kid that carrying a sousaphone is bending his spine?

Ain't no legitimate reason for Nick to have the kid get a second opinion if he's NOT planning on making the kid continue playing sousa.

Telling the kid to get a second opinion means Mr. Pierce intends to force him to play sousaphone? If you'll re-read the thread, you'll notice I was the one who suggested the kid get a second opinion. There are plenty of reasons for the kid to do that...I'm sure if you just think really hard, you can come up with a few. I'll give you one...it's entirely possible that the doctor is just plain wrong (see Leland's story above).

Besides, why does the kid need Nick's approval, anyway? If the story he's telling is true, he should just quit band. The last time I checked, it's not a required course.

ACU still has the rule all music majors have to march all 4 years except for BA (we dont offer a solid perf degree)

So Ive been trying to get out and do tuba euph ensemble, but they said my concert band scholarship would be deleted....(have a seperate marching scholarship.....)

And its killing me....

James, since you hate marching so much and it's "killing you," try telling your Director of Bands that the sousaphone is bending your spine...let us know how that works out for you.

[Leland]

I should add this disclaimer --

I haven't said that I don't have back problems.

There's a spot in my lower spine where, if somebody touches it, I jump. It's not really a painful reaction, but an amazingly sensitive "Yipes!"-kind of thing.

One of the guys I've worked with had a story from when he was playing contra in drum corps. During a pause in field rehearsal, the contra tech sneaked up behind him and, with just two fingers & his thumb, gently poked that same area on his back. He had the same reaction that I do. "What the heck did you just do??", he asked. The tech said that every tuba player, contra or sousaphone, has a sensitive spot in the same place on their back. Then he goes, "Watch this..", and went down the rest of the 12-man line, touching each player in that same spot. Every single one of them just about jumped out of their skin.

I hurt more if I simply sleep in a bad position than if I've been marching all day, but I can't deny that it's physically challenging. After twenty years of this, I've got a funny pad on my left shoulder, and the hair even grows differently there. Other than that, and the sensitive spot, I can't really blame any other injury on the horn. If you look at my posture with the horn, it looks like I'm just standing there -- my body's not really contorted at all. I guess that's a big factor in helping me last this long.

[Nick Pierce]

I would like to apologize to all of you for some misunderstandings that seem to have occurred somehow. Todd refers to me as an experienced educator or something to that effect, which I most definitely am not. I a "techy," "instructor," whatever word you wish to use, not the actual band director. I am about to start my first year of college, sorry for any misconceptions.

That being said, the director is the one in charge, but he, a trumpet player, may or may not know certain things about the situation. For instance, he was completely unaware that marching sousa caused even mild back pains until I told him. I am trying to be well informed for this situation, i.e. I want to be sure if the kid is pulling a fast one that I can inform the director and make sure he doesn't get away with it. On the other hand, if the kids concerns are legitimate and the sousa could seriously damage his back, I want to make sure the director doesn't make him march anyways. In the end it's between the kid, his parents and the director, but the kid and the band both have potential, and I don't want to see either wasted (small tuba section losing one strong player, we all know how that goes).

I have no intention of forcing anybody to march a sousa if they don't want to, having him switch to baritone was my first thought (before I even thought to question what the kid said about the doctors diagnosis actually ). The director, who is much older and more experienced than I am, was immediately suspicious and doesn't believe the kid at all, which is what got be searching for answers. And after reading some of these posts (particular Lelands and the inspiring insight of dear old mom, and I think Scoobs post pointing out the correlation between doctors saying what parents want to hear and their pocket money) I think a little more investigating is necessary before a definitive decision is reached.

In the mean time, I have another plan you all should find amusing. The school happens to be borrowing an old, slightly battered 3/4 (if that) convertible horn, smaller even than that puny Yamaha CC, 621 is that right? Anyways, in the mean time, I may propose having him march that. If he really can't march a sousa, problem more or less solved. If he can, the humiliation of carrying the "baby" horn should be a good motivator for a change of heart. What do you all think?

Thanks again, you guys have all been a huge help. Thank you Todd in particular for your staunch defense (possibly unwarranted, sorry if I let you down), and for whoever it was who scared me with the word "lawsuit." See you tomorrow.

[Leland]

In the mean time, I have another plan you all should find amusing. The school happens to be borrowing an old, slightly battered 3/4 (if that) convertible horn, smaller even than that puny Yamaha CC, 621 is that right? Anyways, in the mean time, I may propose having him march that. If he really can't march a sousa, problem more or less solved. If he can, the humiliation of carrying the "baby" horn should be a good motivator for a change of heart. What do you all think?

No, don't do that.

For one, the small convertible even hurts me -- I'd rather let a sousaphone sit on my shoulder for an entire homecoming game than hold up that "baby" convertible for five minutes. The reason why it sucks as an instrument is, ironically, because it's too small -- it doesn't have enough length to balance its weight fore-and-aft. No matter how he puts it on his shoulder, and even with correct posture, he'll have to use his arms to keep it from falling forward. It's harder to hold up than a regular marching baritone.

The other reason is that humiliation is never a good motivator. All it does is humiliate.

[Nick Pierce]

In the mean time, I have another plan you all should find amusing. The school happens to be borrowing an old, slightly battered 3/4 (if that) convertible horn, smaller even than that puny Yamaha CC, 621 is that right? Anyways, in the mean time, I may propose having him march that. If he really can't march a sousa, problem more or less solved. If he can, the humiliation of carrying the "baby" horn should be a good motivator for a change of heart. What do you all think?

No, don't do that.

For one, the small convertible even hurts me -- I'd rather let a sousaphone sit on my shoulder for an entire homecoming game than hold up that "baby" convertible for five minutes. The reason why it sucks as an instrument is, ironically, because it's too small -- it doesn't have enough length to balance its weight fore-and-aft. No matter how he puts it on his shoulder, and even with correct posture, he'll have to use his arms to keep it from falling forward. It's harder to hold up than a regular marching baritone.

The other reason is that humiliation is never a good motivator. All it does is humiliate.

Always appreciate a different perspective, I hadn't thought of that or from that angle at all. Thanks.

Should I post updates to the situation here, or in the "Update Update Update" thread?

[kegmcnabb]

Wow,

After reading this thread it's a wonder that anyone still plays the souzy!

Is it really this bad? Why are the damn things still used if "every" single person who uses one has painful spots on their spine, fallen arches and hallitosis?

Joking aside though, what is a souzy player to do? What helps to prevent all these injuries? Exercise? Back, abdominals, and shoulders? Extra padding? What brand of souzy pad is the best? Tuba chairs? Hardly good for marching!

I am seriously considering a major investment in restoring my '47 King but you guys are making me wonder. I use it for short Dixie gigs now and quite frankly I do feel a bit "compressed" at the end of the night. It's noticeable enough that I don't use it for longer gigs. I was hoping that continued playing would build the "souzy muscles." What can help?

Suggestions?!? Can we make the world safe for sousa-ma-phone players?

[Todd S. Malicoate]

I've played sousaphone for over 20 years...quite regularly for the first 10-12 of them. I get a little sore the first few days when I pick one up again, but other than that have never experienced problems, back or otherwise. I might have the "sensitive spot" Leland refers to, but I don't think so.

And Nick, no worries...in your first post I misread the word "teching" as "teaching" and thought you were the band director. Now I know you won't be forcing anyone to do anything. Your concern is admirable, but if I were you I would just step back and let the director handle the situation...there really is some liability involved if you say or do the wrong thing.

[windshieldbug]

Suggestions?!? Can we make the world safe for sousa-ma-phone players?

Consider employing a sousaphone-bearer for your gigs.

[Getzeng50s]

Discount any advice you get from anyone on here, whether they are "medically savvy" or not. How could anyone make a diagnosis without ever seeing the student in question?

If you're asking if it's possible that the student has enough spine/back damage to warrant never playing sousaphone again, the answer is of course yes.....


but if I were you I would just step back and let the director handle the situation...there really is some liability involved if you say or do the wrong thing.

funny how this man says "discount everyones advice who posts on here, but make sure to listen to my advice"

[Todd S. Malicoate]

funny how this man says "discount everyones advice who posts on here, but make sure to listen to my advice"

Wow, Mike...nice shot. Sorry...change that to read "discount any medical advice you get from anyone on here." I guess I figured the "medically savvy" part of the sentence made it clear what I was talking about. My bad...I'm sure you understand what it's like to be misunderstood.

I don't recall ever saying "make sure and listen to my advice." It's given freely, so make up your own mind, as usual...I'm sure you know the old adage about free advice.

Todd S. "explaining what he meant, also as usual" Malicoate