Yellow Brass vrs. Gold Brass vrs. Rose Brass vrs. Red Brass

[bisontuba]

Hi-
I have always been curious if there is a specific technical qualification for instruments being 'yellow brass' , 'gold brass', 'rose brass,' and/or 'red brass.' I realize that each manufacturer has their own 'secret recipe' for the brass/metal they use, and besides having gold brass, rose brass, and red brass having more copper, I am curious if there is a specific technical standard for yellow brass, gold brass, rose brass, and/or red brass ( for example: is it by company to company [ ex. Meinl Weston vrs. Miraphone], country to country [ ex. Germany vrs. USA], or a world wide standard that defines yellow brass, gold brass, rose brass, or red brass----and is there a 'standard' technical percentage of copper involved to specifically make an instrument yellow, gold, rose, or red brass). Just curious if there are specifics, or if each manufacturer labels their instruments this way 'on their own.' Thanks.

Regards-
mark
jonestuba@juno.com" target="_blank

[Dan Schultz]

This should give you a good start....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brass

[iiipopes]

Yes, but to simplify things for brass musical instruments, the name refers to the general color of the alloy in its unfinished buffed state, as brass changes color depending on how much zinc is in the mix, with yellow having the most zinc and red having the least zinc. Every manufacturer has his "secret" recipe, but for the most part these are, within a few percentage points, generally what is in the mix:

Yellow brass: 70% copper, 30% zinc.
Gold brass: 80% copper, 20% zinc.
Red brass: 90% copper, 10% zinc.

As I said, these are rough approximations. Also, there is "rose brass," which may be about the same as red brass, or may have some other metals in the mix.

Brass has not always been as finely smelted as it is now. Historically, "low brass," which like gold brass had about 80% copper, was also used for instruments, which had not only copper and zinc, but traces of other elements as well.

And the conventional wisdom is that the more copper, the mellower the tone, and can be more resistant to red rot. Also, the more copper in the mix, the softer the metal is as well, making it more prone to damage. But with something as large as a tuba, there are so many other tone variables that the tone imparted by the metal is about the least of the contributing variables, so tubas tend to be more to the yellow side of things, albeit with a variety of leadpipes, for durability.

And then there's nickel silver, which is actually nickel and copper, and has no silver at all in it.

[Craig F]

Hi,

First post here. I researched this recently, so I thought I'd respond. Nickel Silver is actually Copper, Zinc, and Nickel. The formula varies quite a bit, even more so than Brass. It's called Nickel Silver because it was used as a cheap alternative to Silver.

I made a chart to illustrate the most common Brass configurations. The Nickel Silver example is just one variant. I'm not sure there is any configuration that is most common.

[Alex C]

Don't forget Naval Brass, it's supposedly the secret of the York sound.

[WakinAZ]

Nice chart, and an interesting topic.

Eric "thinking Craig might just fit in around here" L.

[imperialbari]

There are some rules of thumb about the variants of brass and their implications on the sonic output of brass instruments:

Yellow brass, formerly made of the respective national standard alloys for riffle cartridges because these were the cheapest and most readily available, has the most linear response to dynamic input: some clarity in pp and a rather controllable breaking up in ff.

Nickel or German silver is very clear in pp and can take more dynamic input than other brasses before breaking up in ff. Smaller bore instruments entirely made of nickel silver may tend to be sensed stiff in their playing properties. Paxman don’t recommend triple horn being made in all nickel silver.

Gold brass has the warmest sound in low dynamics, but tends to break up rather early when pushed dynamically. The traditional German countermeasure towards that problem has been the addition of a nickel silver garland to the bell rim.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[SplatterTone]

This is interesting. I checked the Miraphone web site for the material for the 191-4V. I think mine is what they call a student model. The Miraphone site says "brass" for the body. The un-student model says "goldbrass". So, I suppose that means mine isn't goldbrass. I am curious what Miraphone's plain old "brass" composition is.

[Rick Denney]

There are about 500 different formulations of metal alloys in the broad category called "brass". There are no standards for the alloys frequently mentioned concerning tubas. Brass may contain antimony, iron, lead, phosphorus, silicon, or tin, in addition to copper and zinc. The copper content may vary from less than 60% to nearly 90%, and the zinc content may vary from 5% up to nearly 40%. "Average" brass is two-thirds copper and one-third zinc. The basic mechanical properties can vary over a ten-to-one range depending on alloy and how it's worked.

Red Brass, also called 230 brass, is 85/15 copper/zinc. "Low brass" (240 brass) is 80/20. "Cartridge brass" (260 brass) is 70/30. "Yellow brass", aka 270 brass, is 65/35. 60/40 brass (280 brass) is called "Muntz metal". Then, there's 330 brass, which is two-thirds, one-third with a bit of lead. And on and on. "Forging brass" is 60/40 with a bit of lead. "Admiralty copper" is 70/30 brass with a little tin, plus either arsenic, phosphorus, or antimony. 205 brass is 80/20 with some tin. "Naval brass" (of which there are at least 150 varieties) is 60/40 with a bit of tin and other stuff (but not lead).

ALL of it has a modulus of elasticity in the range of 14,500 to 16,500 ksi, meaning that it's all nearly identical in terms of stiffness. Strength varies greatly, but if it doesn't deform and stay that way, then it's strong enough and stiffness then tells the story. Stiffness of a structure is controlled by the material stiffness, the shape, and the thickness of the structure. Since the material stiffness is the same for all the alloys under consideration, and since tubas don't deform and stay that way except when you drop them, I conclude that the brass affects corrosion but not vibration. I can find no material difference to explain why one has a different musical effect than another just because of the alloy.

It could be that one alloy is easier to work than another, and therefore results in instruments with a thicker bell rim, or thinner bottom bows, because of the way it works. In that case, any difference in performance would be explained by shape, and the difference in shape is partly explained by alloy.

I like red and gold brass because it doesn't corrode nearly as easily as plain yellow brass. The more zinc, the more dezincification leaves porous copper--the infamous red rot. Higher copper contents are less prone to dezincification. But it's more expensive.

Rick "who disagrees with the notion that Yorks are special because of the alloy" Denney