Gasoline + Ethanol

[Todd S. Malicoate]

All I do is search for your posts and look for things to disagree with, heh, heh.

No one has that much spare time.

Todd S. "who happily concedes" Malicoate

[tofu]

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[Rick Denney]

here's some car dorn for you guys, I really appreciate this discussion.

Now, I gotta go do some research on the Buick straight-eight. That's an overhead-valve engine, while the famous Pontiac Straight-Eight was a flathead. I didn't realize anyone made an overhead-valve car engine in the 30's. Olds had the first I-head OHV engine in mass production, starting in 1949, and that put a real performance squeeze on Ford's Flathead V-8. I think Buick and the other GM divisions were 1-4 years behind Olds, with maybe Chevy's first OHV V8 in 1950.

Rick "surprised by that tall valve cover" Denney

[windshieldbug]

In conjunction with it there is an old tractor show and that gets a big turnout of some sharp tractors as well.

A tractor engine by Morris, but tractor none-the-less...

[tubatom91]

I love that engine. The thing runs so quiet you can here the valves opening and closing. I always hear, "I couldn't even hear you pull in to the driveway!"

(of course it always runs the best when the gas actually gets to the engine which currently it does not )

[tofu]

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[tofu]

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[windshieldbug]

The first time I got hit while vintage racing up at Elkhart Lake race course by an out of control Porche Speedster

Hey- rear engine/swing axle means ALWAYS out of control... we just managed to head a few of them forward at the same time... and try not to hit anything solid or expensive. I learned in a 356A coupe, and I was able not to do either for a long time...

Sorry 'bout your experience, but EL is a blast, isn't it? Got to be my favorite track.

[tubatom91]

that's quite a classy way to get carried out of this world

[Rick Denney]

As for Chevy's first V-8 OHV engine I'm afraid Mr. Denny is off by more than a few years. It was the 1917 Chevrolet Series D Engine. 1917 saw the production of the first Chevrolet V8, a 288 cid overhead valve motor rated at 36 net horsepower. A total of approximately 3000 Chevrolet V8 motors were made between 1917 and 1919.

Actually there were quite a few OHV engines in the '30's. Even the very first MG's back in the 20's were overhead valve engines as quoted below:

I doubt you'd find many MG's in the U.S. during the 30's, and I did intended to limit my comment thusly. But even then, I was wrong, as evidenced by the photo.

As to the Chevy engine, I'll take your word for it that 3000 engines over three model years would be considered "mass production".

Rick "exiting the conversation forthwith" Denney

[tofu]

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[Todd S. Malicoate]

Aw, this is starting to sound like a day at work.

I enjoy old cars, as I can tell tofu and Rick Denney both do, as well. I enjoy the conversations about them more than having rock-solid, to-the-exact-year fact about production of old engines and vehicles. I even enjoyed voicing a theory and having it shot down. I learned something in this thread, which I also enjoy doing from time to time. Thanks to both of you guys for the discussion.

Todd S. "in a rare role as peacemaker" Malicoate

[tofu]

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[tubatom91]

Just thought you all would like to know:
I installed new fuel line from the tank to the pump today and installed the new fuel pump. It runs . I am hoping that it will continue to run.

[Rick Denney]

The Chevy quote is directly from GM's website - so if you don't take their word for it I don't know whose you would.

I said I'd take your word for it. I'm no Chevy expert and don't have time to become one!

Rick "thinking Ford probably made about a million flathead V-8's starting a few years later, but who really doesn't know" Denney

[tofu]

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[tofu]

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[Rick Denney]

Ethanol is an idea that has it's merit, but NOT for old stuff.
It erodes rubber made before 1989, because those flexible components were not made to withstand it's use. Gaskets, filters, pumps, components, you name it.
I personally own 21 Corvairs that were made to burn leaded regular, and ethanol gas makes them fart and sputter like children with too many prunes added to their diet.
If you live in an area that has forced use of ethanol, I strongly recommend you find a station that sells gas with no ethanol. Use Premium, and when you rebuild, use stainless valves and seats, and NEVER use a station that has no labels on the pumps.
THOSE are the worst offenders. If you have to use ethanol, advance your timing three to five degrees and add a full tank of non-ethanol when you find it.
I personally have to drive twelve miles to buy non-ethanol.
This should be a CHOICE, not a government mandate. But, thank the liberals.
Ethanol is a gasline antifreeze, NOT a mileage booster. But thank the government for it's forced usages.

If you advance your timing 3-5 degrees on an old engine (pre-knock sensor) "just because", you'll surely need that premium gas to minimize detonation.

Ethanol isn't as bad as you say. I'm using it frequently on a '73 GMC motorhome with no real ill effects, except that it does not contain as much energy and therefore causes a reduction in mileage. Of course, any rubber old enough to be affected by ethanol in fuel is old enough to be affected by real gasoline, too. And it's probably rotted and needs to be replace in any case. I've had to replace everything rubber on my motorhome, but it wasn't because of ethanol.

Ethanol will sometimes loosen fuel-tank sludge that has resulted from water condensation in the fuel tanks. It make take a few flushes of the tank, and replacements of fuel filters, to get it cleaned out sufficiently. That's more of an age problem than a material problem, however.

Ethanol is good at keeping water condensation from collecting in tanks in the future.

That said, I don't disagree with your conclusions--there are many policy and efficiency reasons to prefer something other than ethanol. And the use of an oxygenate in fuel doesn't have the effect that the emissions-control people think it does, when you consider the difference in efficiency (it makes fewer emissions, but it requires more fuel, negating most of the benefit). And the energy required to produce it is much too high for it to be a worthwhile source of fuel. But other oxygenates were toxic (anybody remember MTBE?) if they leaked into ground water, and the farm lobby (supported by such corporate agribusinesses at Archer-Daniels-Midland) has always been formidably strong.

But don't overestimate the role of government here. Government just mandates air quality standards in cities, and in those cities that don't meet air-quality standards, local agencies must provide a plan for how they will come closer to meeting those standards. Oxygenated fuel is one requirement, because it supposedly helps reduce ozone emissions, and ozone is a high-profile air-quality issue on hot summer days when humidity and dew points are high, the tropopause hot (i.e., a temperature inversion), and winds calm. It's not a conspiracy to ruin old cars (though most EPA policy makers would be happy with that outcome because new cars with computer-managed engines run so much more cleanly). The government had plenty of popular support in mandating those air-quality improvements, so you can spread the blame to your neighbors.

Rick "noting that low emissions and good fuel economy are partially conflicting objectives" Denney

[windshieldbug]

If no-lead and ethanol bother you, buy gas at a racetrack or an airport. I believe avgas is still gas...

[Todd S. Malicoate]

If no-lead and ethanol bother you, buy gas at a racetrack or an airport. I believe avgas is still gas...

Just make sure and bring all your money. That stuff ain't cheap, Jackson...
Not to mention the extremely high octane rating (except for red avgas, which is actually lower octane (around 80) than pump gas and should not be used for that reason) can actually damage your engine. Avgas also usually contains some lead...bad, bad, bad for your street car. Stay away from the airport and the racetrack.

Todd S. "who thinks music professionals should stick to music advice" Malicoate