Chance at a 20J

[The Jackson]

Hello, all

I was cruising around looking for tubas for sale in my area, when I went onto Craigslist and found this.

I'm very interested in purchasing this horn because the price is good and in the budget and it's in my area (I don't see something with BOTH of these a lot).

One of my main concerns is be whether or not I can use this horn effectively in whatever playing situation I'll face down into college. The person who posted the ad states that he used it as his main horn in a symphony orchestra, and I'm going to be in that position very soon. It appears to have 3 valves (Can someone confirm? The picture is kind of blurry, but I'm going to call him later and ask about that). Would that be a real problem? I'm also planning on participating in a brass quintet made up of youth symphony orchestra members. Would a 20J be inappropriate for that playing situation?

I'm interested in this horn because of the reasons I stated earlier, but also because I just switched schools, and my tuba situation is very muddy right now. I'm not sure whether or not the school I'll be attending can spare a horn that I can keep at home (from what I've seen, they cannot supply that). My teacher assures my mother and myself that I can find a good horn for $1500 and under, and this 20J seems to fit the bill.

I'm going to call this person later and hopefully drop by and test the horn out in the next day or so.

-Jackson

[The Jackson]

That's interesting, Bob, but the big reason I'm interesting in this horn is that it is in my local area. My mother says that she will not get something sight-unseen, and it's her money, so I won't argue.


Also, I forgot to mention, but the picture shows it, is that this 20J has an upright bell. I'll get the skinny on this when I call up the poster of the ad.

[The Jackson]

Yes, I'm also concerned about the valves. Should this horn really WOW me, would an added 4th valve be an option and, if so, practical and effective?

[The Jackson]

That is very interesting, Bob, and I'll keep my eye out for those. I'll speak with my teacher and see if that's an option.

Also, if I didn't make it clear in my first post, time is [somewhat] of the essence. I have two auditions coming up and I haven't had a horn for over a week now. All-State is also coming up, but I'm not sure I can do that because of my classes.

[Rick Denney]

Yes, I'm also concerned about the valves. Should this horn really WOW me, would an added 4th valve be an option and, if so, practical and effective?

No. It would cost more to add it then you would spend just buying a 25J in the first place.

The prohibition against buying something sight-unseen is one thing, but you might be able to get around that buying from a store that will let you buy on approval. Then, the biggest risk you are taking would be the shipping, but frankly the advice you'll get from one of the good dealers should minimize that risk. If a 20J is inside your solution space, then I'll bet one of the stores could make you a good recommendation that would serve your purposes even better.

Rick "suggesting some phone calls" Denney

[Todd S. Malicoate]

I'm still amazed by all this talk of high school students buying tubas.

I was able to get through high school, making principal All-State 3 times, go to Interlochen twice, get a bachelors and masters degree, play in the Disney summer bands twice, win a few competitions at ITECs and a couple of concerto competitions, and take a dozen or so orchestral and military band auditions...all without ever buying a horn...on school-owned equipment. I include in my prayers every night a thank you for giving me the wisdom to not give myself an additional $30K or so in debt for tubas that I clearly didn't need.

Is it impossible to do nowadays?

[The Jackson]

I'm not wanting to buy a tuba just for the sake of buying a tuba. If I did, I would bide my time for a big "pro" tuba. My old school gave me a great horn that took me to great places in the short amount of time I had with it, but I don't have that luxury now. If I had a good standing on a school-owned horn at my new school, I would not give this matter a thought at all.

[cjk]

You should call the person and go play the tuba.

If it's in nice cosmetic and mechanical shape and the valves have excellent compression (in other words, the tuba needs no repairs at all), and most importantly **YOU LIKE IT*** then it's a deal.

Personally, I would be on the lookout for something like the following because I can't stand the 20j. I linked pictures just in case you don't to know what they look like.
Olds 0-99 (same as TB10 below)
Reynolds TB10 (http://contemporacorner.com/images/horns/TB10.jpg" target="_blank" target="_blank) or Contempora (http://contemporacorner.com/images/horns/low175.jpg" target="_blank" target="_blank)
Old style King 1241 or 2341 (http://www.gakki.com/catalog54/king_2341la.jpg" target="_blank" target="_blank)
Conn 5j (http://www.oberloh.com/sales/conn5Jbig.jpg" target="_blank" target="_blank)

The Contempora or King can be as "all purpose" a tuba as you would ever need.

[GC]

The 2XJ series is designed to play with a tuning bit (or sousaphone bit), and there's not one in the picture. You should take one with you for the tryout if you can. It can make a huge difference in how comfortably the horn sits.

The bell doesn't look like an original. The 21J and 25J had upright bells, while the 20J and 24J were front-bell horns. A lot of these horns had transplant and rebuilt bells from other instruments, so it's hard to tell from a picture if it's a true 20J or not.

The 20J and 21J were three-bangers, and the 24J and 25J were 4-valved. In general, 2XJ horns have short-stroke valves, and the 3XJ series had full-stroke.

Expect to probably play open F at the bottom of the staff 1+3.

[The Jackson]

Yeah, I've read about the tuning bit and the flat 3rd partial. I don't think acquiring a bit would be too difficult, though.


I remember seeing this at the BBC a while back, and it seems to be still for sale. Does anyone have any information on this horn? It looks like it's in good shape. Looks like a good "do all" horn? The price is $1795

[The Big Ben]

I remember seeing this at the BBC a while back, and it seems to be still for sale. Does anyone have any information on this horn? It looks like it's in good shape. Looks like a good "do all" horn? The price is $1795

Give David a call. I've talked to him and he sounds like a good guy. He didn't press me to buy anything. The horn I was calling about (a four valve Olds BBb) had been sold that morning. Since he is a 'tuba man', he might know about horns that might be for sale.

It seems that a lot of King 2340s come up on eBay for reasonable prices although it sounds like your mother would not approve of eBay. You can get one of those for $600-1000 in fair shape with cases. They have three valves but have a good sound and are easy to play in tune. The 20J is quite a bulky horn and the King is lighter. This King would be a good horn for you to play before you knew if 'tuba is your life'.

Any way you go, I'd suggest getting a tuba that is going to hold its value. This 20J should hold its $1K value if it is in as good of shape as the seller says and, of course, if you don't drop it down the stairs. If you decide to get really serious about the tuba, it would be fairly easy to sell it for a college tuba when the time comes. If you decide to go another direction, you could keep it for community band et. al. or sell it to get a down payment on a house.

[The Jackson]

Yeah, I think will give the BBC a call tomorrow.

I just got off the phone with the gentleman selling the 20J and I'm going to stop by on Saturday to play the horn. He played the Coral Springs Symphony Orchestra for 11 years (which has since folded), and used this 20J for most of that time. He said he had the recording bell converted into an upright bell. He really digged the horn, so I think I'll go over and at play an old horn. I'll bring some of my varied mouthpieces to try out. It sounds good.

[imperialbari]

Con2XJ catalogue text.jpg

Here is the text on this series of tubas from a Conn 1968 catalogue. If fully original this instrument is a 21J. The profile of the lower part of the bell looks more genuine, than some other conversions from 20J to 21J (if we at all are speaking of a conversion).

The price may be fair, but for a tubist playing in “normal” musical environments (not in huge bands) this size of tuba hardly will be an optimal choice for having just one tuba. Other posters have made various suggestions more suited for allround usage. I don't know about your age precisely, but if you are a player still developing towards a versatile technique, then I am rather convinced, that this instrument is far too big for that purpose.

Currently i am not following the US market for used tubas very closely, so sadly I cannot present you on a silver plate the ideal tuba within your price frame.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[Nick Pierce]

You want BBb, or would you consider CC?

Also, is it absolutely necessary that you have a horn at school and one at home? Obviously you need one at school for band classes, but is it absolutely essential that you have another "practice" horn at home? After I got my license I was able to drop my mom of at work before school, stay after school for a while to practice, and then pick her up after work as well. This also enabled me to bring the horn with me as needed for youth symphony, auditions, etc. That doesn't help you for the immediate future (and imminent auditions), but still, something to consider.

And out of curiosity, how would All-State interfere with classes? Surely you can afford to "be sick" one or two days, or is it that different out there from out here?

[The Jackson]

High school lets me miss school for honor bands, but I'm going to be in dual-enrollment, and I don't think the college courses will do that.

I get what you're saying about a horn at home. I'm of age to get my learner's permit, and I think I'm going to do that in the near future. I'll need that for one year before my actual license. Until then, my mom takes me to and from school (or I'll walk, which I mostly likely will be doing a lot now).


@imperialbari:

Thanks for that picture! All he told me was that he converted the forward bell to an upright bell. I assume a similar procedure to what Tubajohn20J had done with his 20J.

I've heard a lot on here that the 20J is a beastly beast. Hopefully I'll be able to get a good amount of time on it on Saturday, but I understand that it is huge.

[Rick Denney]

I've heard a lot on here that the 20J is a beastly beast. Hopefully I'll be able to get a good amount of time on it on Saturday, but I understand that it is huge.

A good Conn 2XJ makes a grand sound, with an American zip to it. The 20J I owned was perhaps not the best example, but it wasn't on the same planet as my Holton in its ability to be held back. But I don't use the Holton for anything except playing in band. For ensemble playing, it's just too big and makes too broad a sound. The 20J's grand sound was the only tool in the box for that tuba, and I could never get below mf with it.

The really good ones are better than the one I had, to be sure.

But they all have intonation quirks, and in fact they were designed that way. The flat third partial was done on purpose to bring the fifth partial more in tune, with the expectation that the third-partial F would be played 1-3. I found my 20J just a little too hard to manage, intonation-wise.

There's a reason the prices for them are uniformly low, when battered BB-345 Holtons with patches and worn-out valves routinely get twice as much and more.

But if you need the low price, that's about the only option if you want an earth-mover. You'll wish you had something smaller, though, if you have an opportunity, for example, to play in a brass quintet. And you should take those opportunities.

At your price range, there are other options. I particularly like the older King 1241 tubas, which have front-action valves (so the bell will point the same direction as other tubas in the section), and have a particularly high value for their typical price.

Do call Dave at Baltimore Brass and Matt at Dillon, and ask them for help. Those are two guys you can trust to give you fair and honest advice.

[The Jackson]

I plan on calling Baltimore Brass tomorrow, specifically to question about that King CC I posted.

[Nick Pierce]

I plan on calling Baltimore Brass tomorrow, specifically to question about that King CC I posted.

Planning to learn CC for the auditions two weeks away, are we?

It can be done, so you know. Best of luck to you. That King looked pretty purty.

[The Jackson]

Ha, I didn't really pay attention to the key.

By the time of the auditions, though, I'll be able to nab a school horn (whatever horn in whatever condition) at least for that event.

[TUbajohn20J]

Looks like a nice horn, you should definately go try it out. You probably won't be dissapointed. I love mine, mine also works very well for the college playing I do (quartets, wind ensemble, solos). They sound great. Big massive tone. I know others such as Rick state that they could not get below a mf without losing sound quality. Mine I think happens to be one of those "good" ones. It has the best p and mp of most tubas I've played, and the low register is hard to beat with any other tuba. Good luck