Advice/Info on Antique Tuba?

[George M]

Hello,
I'm in search of any info about an antique tuba I own. It's a 1878 silver-plated Antoine Courtois & Mille E-Flat Contre Basse. It has many different etchings on the bell that list awards attributed to different dates. While I'm not a wind instrumnent player, it seems to be in good working condition. Would there be any interest in or value to an instrument such as this? I've tried looking for sales on e-bay, etc, but haven't ever found anything that matches what I own. Thanks in advance for any help you might be able to throw my way.
Best regards,
George

[Alex C]

PM ImperialBari with pictures and descriptions. Don't spend your time on the rest of us.

[Navytubaman]

Hello,

I sent a private message to you if you are interested in a sale of this instrument.

It should be in your message center.

JKD

[imperialbari]

These are watered down versions of photos received from George. There are two more photos of the engravings, but I cannot get them below 256K in size. All high resolution versions will be uploaded to my galleries, when I am done practising.

Klaus

Front.jpg[/attachment [attachment=1]3+1.jpg

[attachment=0]Eng1.jpg[/attachment

[Søren]

At one point I owned a 3 valve version of this tuba in raw brass. What really struck me was the large diameter bottom bow compared to the rather limited bell flare. But it was a surprisingly good player!

[Dan Schultz]

Didn't Courtois build some conical bore tubas? Is this one of them?

[windshieldbug]

Didn't Courtois build some conical bore tubas? Is this one of them?

It was Ernst Albert Couturier who built instruments with a "Continuous Conical Bore", here in the US. But yes, he did build tubas.

Obviously, ALL tubas are conical bore (some more than others), but the tubing through the valves in other horns is cylindrical, even in "dual bore" instruments...

[Dan Schultz]

Didn't Courtois build some conical bore tubas? Is this one of them?

It was Ernst Albert Couturier who built instruments with a "Continuous Conical Bore"

Yes. I recall the name now. Thanks!

[imperialbari]

Photos as promised only a bit delayed, and then they will have to be spread over a few postings.

Klaus

[imperialbari]

Next delivery.

Klaus

[imperialbari]

Hereby all but one of the photos of the engravings, which I forgot to resize, when working on another computer.

The dimensions are somewhat similar to my Besson Eb from 1870. Those similarities do not come by coincidence, as the British makers of that era were of very recent French descendence. My Besson has the tuning slide much later in the leadpipe. Actually after the 4th piston. And my old Besson has the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd valve loops placed on the rear side of the body. This actual Courtois only has its 3rd valve loop placed on the rear and then in a funny fashion wrapped into the body frame right behind the 1st valve loop, likely for convenience when the slide are pulled for draining. The Courtois may be seen as a transitional model towards the more modern style of having the valve loops on the front.

I have wondered why the loops-on-the-rear went out of fashion, but only until I this summer started to practise much more and as part of this started playing the old Besson, which is a nice and quite agile instrument with a compact sound coming from its very long portion of cylindrical tubing with a bore of only 0.634”. However the valve knuckles do not provide a comfortable grip or rest for my right hand. The hand bars of my compensating euph and BBb tuba plus the inner top bow of my compensating bass tubas provide much better ergonomics.

I tend to believe Søren’s reporting of his 3 valve version of the Courtois Eb bass being a good player. The more recent versions of these tubas were the Besson Westminster and the Boosey & Hawkes Regent models. Their tuning was not well liked and of course they had the limits of 3 valve instruments with no triggers or push rods. However they were not too bad, when one realised, that their 3rd valve loop had not been dimensioned for correct tuning, but rather for a proper fitting into the case. That slide was far too short. If pulled so that it came below the bottom bow, then the tuning became much more reasonable. There has been made at least one 3+1 non-comper on that frame, but it slipped from me in an auction. I would have liked to try one as I believe this combination of small size and the 3+1 design would have made a really good tuba for young students.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[windshieldbug]

The last award date on this horn is 1878.

The next one that was added was in 1889, and there is no Courtois serial number list that I am aware of, so the best one can say is that it was likely made between 1878 and 1889.

[imperialbari]

The last award date on this horn is 1878.

The next one that was added was in 1889, and there is no Courtois serial number list that I am aware of, so the best one can say is that it was likely made between 1878 and 1889.

The succession of stamps in the engraving patterns is a type of information, which I have not dug much into, but I certainly am glad, that others have. Narrowing the date of making of a very old tuba without a serial # down to a period less than 10% of its age is not too bad. Some people have closer information on the US importer, which may narrow the time frame even more.

Anyway this instrument is an interesting sample of period piston tubas. It is engraved as a Saxhorn Contrebasse, which fits with the Sax family of brasses, which was placed higher than the current practice of naming. The soprano was a flugelhorn in high Eb, and the alto was the flugelhorn in Bb, which the non-Francophile world today considers the soprano. The tenor was the Eb bell-up instrument, which everybody but the British brass bandits today calls an alto horn. The Bb tenor pitch had two Saxhorn variants: the smaller bore baryton and the wider bore basse. This is reflected in the scores of one of the main off-springs of the development of the Saxhorn family, the evolving British brass band movement. The earlier scores have the Bb bass staff ABOVE of the Eb bass staff. The practice of treble clef notation doesn't allow for a determination of the octave, but the Bb bass line very, very likely was played on the equivalent of a euphonium. One US band score of this era, The Helicon Schottische, supports this by having its bass part (written in bass clef) clearly indicating the range of a Bb instrument above the Eb bass. How the players and directors of that era discerned between euphoniums and Bb basses is beyond me. In some arrangements these instruments have very similar parts. Period euphonium parts had an odd practice of letting the two players split into fourths on ending chords. The low fifth between the root notes, played in octaves by the 1st euph and the Eb bass(es), is rare today, but it has a clear acoustical effect: creating the aural impression of the root being played even one more octave below the Eb bass. This effect is well known in church organs, and its application in period brass bands indicates that they did not have a contrabass tuba in BBb.

This takes us back to present Courtois Eb tuba. For sure it must have been the bottom brass in French military bands back then. Berlioz very well may have known piston Eb tubas of this magnitude, even with 4 valves.

I tend to believe, that this size of Eb tuba was the orchestral tuba for Berlioz, but I don’t really know when the French C tuba entered the French orchestra.

While the small bore of 0.634” works well in my small 1870 Besson 3+1P tuba, that bore would have been too small for a convincing BBb tuba. Cerveny and other central European makers had rotary BBb tubas before 1860, But when do we see the first French, British, and US piston BBb basses? Were the original Pepper sousaphones among these?

Quite a straying, but these thoughts and questions are made very actual, when we see a period contrabass tuba being in Eb.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[George M]

It is very interesting for me to read all of your posts and learn about my tuba. I bought it at a local antique dealer a couple years ago (because I love musical instruments and I thought it would make for a cool decorative and conversation piece in my living room) and have been attempting to learn more about it ever since without any luck until I stumbled upon TubeNet. I thank all of you for your interest and sharing of knowledge, especially Klaus - thank you Klaus for uploading the pictures and your great insight into all things tuba! As I told Klaus, I'm no tuba player (I play guitar), but I have tried to play it and it seems to work well. I'd love to hear someone play it some time! It does make me a little sad to own an instrument that doesn't ever see any use. Thanks again one and all! ~George

[iiipopes]

Do you have a community band close by? Take it with you to a rehearsal and ask the tuba players to play it after rehearsal. If it were me, I'd be like a kid in a candy store getting to try it.

Or, do you have a college or university close by that has a good music department? Do the same thing: call the low brass instructor/professor, and see if any of his students, or even the instructor/professor, wants a shot at it. I bet they'll ask how soon you can come over and bring it.

Then, join the community band and learn how to play it, and take lessons from the instructor/professor!

[windshieldbug]

While the small bore of 0.634” works well in my small 1870 Besson 3+1P tuba, that bore would have been too small for a convincing BBb tuba. Cerveny and other central European makers had rotary BBb tubas before 1860, But when do we see the first French, British, and US piston BBb basses?

I have recorded a Besson BBb helicon from c.1879, a piston valve Boston Musical Instrument Manufactory (and therefor pre 1902) BBb, a Boosey & Co BBb from 1874, a Buescher Manufacturing Co (and therefor pre 1904) BBb, a Conn BBb helicon from 1874, a Distin (London) BBb from 1872-1874, and a York BBb helicon that I figure to be from 1904; no doubt that there are others extant that were constructed even earlier.

[George M]

Great suggestion iiipopes! I have just sent an email to the head of the low brass dept at UNF to inquire if he would be interested in playing it. I'll let you all know what transpires. Thanks! George

[LOTP]

As I sit here at my computer I am holding the twin to the tuba under discussion. Mine is identical with the following exceptions: It is raw brass showing no sign of ever having been silver plated; There is no importer's imprint; the last line of the awards reads "MEDAILLE D'OR PARIS 1878 1889 1900---obviously slightly newer. I bought it at a flea market over 30 years ago for $25. My late father did the initial restoration work and it
was later gone over by Matt Walters at Dillons who pronounced it a good useable horn.
It has since been used at MANY Tubachristmasses and even as a marching horn before i got my sousaphone. I play it with a (small shank) Wick 4.

LOTP (Paul in NJ)

PS: One showed up on E**Y last year---i don't remember the winning bid.

[George M]

Very cool Paul! There's two of us out there!

[imperialbari]

As I sit here at my computer I am holding the twin to the tuba under discussion. Mine is identical with the following exceptions: It is raw brass showing no sign of ever having been silver plated; There is no importer's imprint; the last line of the awards reads "MEDAILLE D'OR PARIS 1878 1889 1900---obviously slightly newer. (...)
It has since been used at MANY Tubachristmasses and even as a marching horn before i got my sousaphone. I play it with a (small shank) Wick 4.

What you say fits with my evaluation done only by means of the photos. This small size of Eb tubas has been used for concert and marching in at least two all amateurs bands within our equivalent of the British Territorial Army (rather similar to the US National Guard I think). In the all female navy band. And by an older player in the army branch band in my neighbour town. They are not terribly loud, but they are good alternatives, if the player doesn't want to march a heavier instrument. They aren't too taxing on the lungs either.

As you are a more experienced brass person than George, I would like you to measure the inner bores of the 2nd and 4th valve slides.

Klaus