Sousaphone vs. Contra

[NDSPTuba]

Ok, this may open a can of worms but I'm trying to avoid work and this has been on my mind since going to a DCI show a couple weeks ago. It seems to me that the sousaphone produces more sound or at least breadth of sound if not decibles than the contra. I say this because at the DCI show, I saw some great preformances by the Blue Devils, Phantom Regiment, and others and for all of them when they would go bells up and lay into a chord, the contras would barely be heard. Now I realize the high pitched instruments are much more directional and the contras are more omni directional, but I heard ( to my ears ) a better balance when they where facing away and playing then when facing us. The reason I bring up the sousaphone, is because I've heard many a good college marching band and have never been wondering where the bass was, as the sousaphones are able to balance just fine. Even when taking into consideration the differences between the DCI corps and a college marching band, the larger college bands do produce a ton of sound, and it justs seems to me, that the sousaphone produces a bigger, deeper sound than the contra. Is it just me, are me ears full of something, or is there something to this?

[Gorilla Tuba]

You are right... this is a big can of worms. It will offend most DCI folks that something other than what they played in their corps could sound better.

I marched 5 years of drum corps, 3 were with the Blue Devils. I think our King K-90 Contras were awesome. They were pure power. That beings said, I would never consider anything other than a sousaphone for a college band.

Reason #1 - sound of sousaphone fills stadiums better. Not necessarily louder, but the sound just seems to carry better. Contras do have a more direct sound that is probably at least as loud if its pointed directly at you.

Reason #2 - Corps members are usually tougher than band kids. The contras that sound good are the big ones. I know that at least half of my sousaphone section would whine constantly if they have to carry around a 5/4 contraBUS. Sousaphones are easier to carry for most people.

Reason #3 - looks. Contras look at home with a drum corps. Sousaphones are what people expect to see in a college band. I love drum corps, but I don't want my college band to be one.

I guarantee you that many DCI alum will give a contrary argument.

[brianggilbert]

Well stated - except for the Blue Devils thing

Brian "O Holy Name..." Gilbert

[Uncle Buck]

I agree contras just look/fit/whatever better for corps, and sousaphones just look/fit/whatever better for school bands.

I've never been in a corp or played a contra, but . . .

I was one of the poor schmucks whose high school band director thought the DCI contras looked cool, and bought a set of the POS "convertible" tubas that were gaining popularity in the 80s. (It didn't help that the local university used that same model, with a tuba line of about 15.)

The ones we had weren't balanced well - the majority of the weight of the instrument was on my left hand, not on my shoulder. As a result, marching band was always, always painful for me. Plus they sounded awful. Bore too small, couldn't get any kind of volume out of it without getting blatty. A fiberglass sousa would have been MUCH better.

We were able to do a cool tuba twirl thing, but that didn't even come close to making up for the other problems.

Band directors who get those should lose their teaching licenses. I very much appreciated getting to use a sousaphone in college.

Edit:

For the model we used, the bracing on the leadpipe also sucked - the leadpipe and mouthpiece just moved around and floated constantly. Plus, tip the horn up a little too much, and get a face full of spit.

My band director was a euphonium player - should have known better.

[Uncle Buck]

Anyone that says a fiberglass sousie sounds better has obviously never played one before--they carry the sound for about 5 feet in front of the bell.

I did not say I thought a fiberglass sousa sounds better than a contra. (I have no experience with a contra, so I couldn't make that comparison.) I do believe it sounds better than many of the convertible tubas marketed to school band programs, and I have experience playing both fiberglass sousas and convertible tubas. I haven't played the Jupiter convertible, though, so I couldn't comment on that particular one.

[TubaCoopa]

To me, sousaphones seem to put out more sound, while sacrificing tone, and contras put out less sound, while conserving tone. (This is just a general statement. I realize that with experience, these tendencies can be overcome.)

[iiipopes]

If you could be around when it is played, you would have to concede there is absolutely no loss of tone on the 38K. It's just huge, and has it all: tone, intonation, projection, support, blend, false pedals, real pedals, fine tunability now that I've converted the upper loop of the 1st valve tubing to a left hand slide, stability at all dynamic levels, and I mean all. When I play it, I can, if I have to, singularly support an entire band of at least 50. If it were possible to have a marching band with a dozen souzys, 1/3 of them Conn 38K's or 40K's, 1/3 of them Pan Am or Cavalier 24 inch bells (predecessor to the 14K) and the rest H N White era souzys so you get a good blended broad section, you'd never consider even looking at a contra again.

[Uncle Buck]

Please don't lump convertibles in with real contras; a convertible is no more representative of a contra than it is of a conventional tuba.

Absolute truth.

+1

I don't disagree with that. I was just intending to comment (obviously somewhat off-topic, but that's par for the course here, isn't it) on how the popularity of the corps has led many misguided band directors to purchase the convertibles. Apparently I didn't make the distinction very well in my post.

[GC]

I like the fact that the center of gravity in a souzy is within the player's body instead of above and to one side. It takes a lot of the physical stress off the player.

As for sound, good players with decent instruments that are properly maintained can make a section of souzys equal to any section of over-the-shoulder horns. One of the biggest problems with school horns is that they are rarely maintained until they won't play at all. Kids are expected to play on craphorns that would never be tolerated if they owned the horns themselves, or if maintenance and repair of big horns was not so prohibitively expensive.

I've seen sections of fiberglass flower-planter Conns that sounded wonderful. I've seen sections of metal sousaphones that sounded better. I've seen sections of OTS tubas that sound like garbage. It's mostly in the teaching.

Rant: and why to so many sections of sousaphones leave all of the slides (except the main tuning slide) pushed in all the way? Many players and directors never bother with trying to tune each valve. It's common for the valve slides to be next to immovable. I guess they think they were tuned at the factory for a lifetime.

[Bandmaster]

You have to remember WHY contras came into existence in the first place. They were an attempt to create a bass horn, in the key of G, to match visually with the rest of the bell front bugles being used. I want to stress that visual matching (bell front) was the main goal, not the best sound! The first ones built were NOT contrabass but only bass bugles. They were 3/4 to small 4/4 size at best. Only later, when the brass instructors decided they want a real bass sound, did they start designing and building real contrabass horns. The sousaphone was designed to turn a concert tuba into something easier to carry and they started out with the bell up. Who ever decided to turn the sousaphone bell forward and make it much larger in diameter happened upon the secret to making a contrabass horn project well outdoors. I would bet that if you put a 26" bell flare on a Kansul 5/4 marching tuba it would really improve the projection and angle of despersion of the sound. But who could hope to see where they were going while marching with the thing?

[tokuno]

. . . 1/3 of them Conn 38K's or 40K's, 1/3 of them Pan Am or Cavalier 24 inch bells (predecessor to the 14K) and the rest H N White era souzys so you get a good blended broad section . . .

I thought PanAm/Cavvy were supposed to be roughly equivalent to Conn14K. You've piqued my curiosity, and I'd like to learn more. Can you please share your experience on the sound difference between PanAm/Cavalier vs. Conn 14k?

(I just got a PanAm - love it).

[TUbajohn20J]

. . . 1/3 of them Conn 38K's or 40K's, 1/3 of them Pan Am or Cavalier 24 inch bells (predecessor to the 14K) and the rest H N White era souzys so you get a good blended broad section . . .

I thought PanAm/Cavvy were supposed to be roughly equivalent to Conn14K. You've piqued my curiosity, and I'd like to learn more. Can you please share your experience on the sound difference between PanAm/Cavalier vs. Conn 14k?

(I just got a PanAm - love it).

The Pan Americans and Cavaliers are the same as the 14K. Just built before Conn started making the 14K. They are pretty much identical except for a few braces and valve caps. All were 3 valve .734 bore standard stroke valves. Easy to fill up and a big fat sound if you ask me.

[TubaCoopa]

Playing loud was no problem on an old Conn 20K

That is one loud souzy. A bit heavier, but it's WAAAY worth it.

[Leland]

Reason #1 - sound of sousaphone fills stadiums better.

Reason #2 - Corps members are usually tougher than band kids.

Reason #3 - looks. Contras look at home with a drum corps. Sousaphones are what people expect to see in a college band.

I guarantee you that many DCI alum will give a contrary argument.

I won't give a contrary argument, but I'll add to the points you've made.

#4 - It's really, really difficult to hold a flipfolder of music while playing a contra.

#5 - It's easier -- by FAR -- to march sideways with a contra than a sousie.

#6 - Swinging from side to side is much, much easier with sousaphone.

Sound-wise, it really depends on the horn. One of my college tuba friends and I did a blind outdoor listening test with nine different instruments -- four models of sousaphone (no Conn 20K, though, but we had a King), four concert tubas turned to aim the bell at the listener, and one King K-90 contra bugle -- and the results ended up with one of the concert horns as the winner, the King sousie in second place, and the K-90 contra in either third or fourth. I posted about it a while back, so it's probably in the old TubeNet archive.

[imperialbari]

Really? Unless you are holding it awkwardly or possibly heavy-set, it isn't any harder than marching sideways with a trumpet. Trombones is where its hard, especially turned to the left. I know in my first year of college we had to do a traverse across and back, and for some strange reason I had to turn my body/sousa about 100+ degrees to stay with the line and picture. I can't imagine doing that with a contra just lightly sitting on my shoulder. Sousaphones just seem easier to do any movement in, running, skipping, twirling, hop-scotch, skanking.

Would it be possible for you to create a youtube video displaying all of these moves while playing your sousaphone. Many of the terms are unknown to me.

Klaus

[The Jackson]

skanking

Pick It Up: The Sound of Streetlight Manifesto

[iiipopes]

. . . 1/3 of them Conn 38K's or 40K's, 1/3 of them Pan Am or Cavalier 24 inch bells (predecessor to the 14K) and the rest H N White era souzys so you get a good blended broad section . . .

I thought PanAm/Cavvy were supposed to be roughly equivalent to Conn14K. You've piqued my curiosity, and I'd like to learn more. Can you please share your experience on the sound difference between PanAm/Cavalier vs. Conn 14k?

(I just got a PanAm - love it).

They are. They are basically (pun intended) the same instrument, and (at least, the pre-Macmillian era horns) have generally the same valve block, bugle, and playing characteristics.

And I join the rant about bands who don't treat souzy tuning slides the same as any other instrument and adjust them as necessary. I concede I go to the other extreme with my movable top loop 1st slide so it has all the intonation adjustment of any fine tuba, but at least pull 3 so 2+3 is in tune or a hair flat so 1+3 is not so sharp as to be almost unusable.

[Leland]

The sousaphone touches your hip. That causes visible bell movement when you move in certain ways because your hip is moving around. It also causes a disturbance with your face. These problems, albeit minor in a college band setting, would be major issues in the world of DCI and 12 to 16 hours rehearsal days, six days per week.

In a corps, your 100º traverse would never happen because you physically cannot do that properly and keep your upper body properly aligned, breath properly and not bounce a bit. In a corps as the player crosses the 90º point they usually pivot and continue on backwards. That would make your 100º move into an 80º one as you hit the 90º point.

Exactly right about the sousaphone bouncing against the lower body. A contra has a real advantage for sideways movement because it's isolated from everything below the shoulders.

Can't say "would never happen" about doing slides beyond 90 degrees, though. Sometimes, if the rest of the section is moving within 90º of frontfield and one or two are moving backfield, I'll have the players traveling backfield do it with a forward step. It looks cleaner (especially with light-colored or striped pants) to have everybody's feet & knees making the same movements.

Been there, done that, on both types of instruments; between the two, I've marched a greater variety of drill shows on sousaphone, and put more mileage on contra. I don't boast much about anything, but on this topic, I think I'm pretty well qualified.

[iiipopes]

Elephant and Leland are the first two posters who have been able to describe with any technicality, accuracy and objectivity the differences in the visual aspects of using a souzy vs using a contra. Thanks.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Elephant and Leland are the first two posters who have been able to describe with any technicality, accuracy and objectivity the differences in the visual aspects of using a souzy vs using a contra. Thanks.

They may also be two of just a very small number of people who give a &^#%.

Really, is there ever a situation where you have to choose between the two?