copyright info

[ken k]

Howdy fellow tubenetters,

I am looking for copyright info on Henry Fillmore's Lassus Trombone and Von Tilzer's "Take Me out to the Ballgame"

The old march sized band copy of Lassus trombone that our band has, has a copyright date of 1915, which should make it public domain. But I have a collection of Fillmore rags with Lassus Torombone in it copyrighted 1978, although each rag in the book has its origianl copyright dated and the page with Lassus trombone on it has a copyright date of 1915 (as on the old band arrangement).

Also Take Me Out to the Ballgame was first written in 1908 (100th anniversary this year!), but the lyrics were rewritten in the 20's. I am assuming the melody would still be PD.
I have an elementary band arrangement of the tune in my band library and the copyright date listed is only for the arrangement not the origianl tune. It does not state "used with permission" which is usually the case with arrangements of copyrighted material.

Who does one contact to find out who owns copyrights of various pieces. I have checked on Harry Fox's page and ASCAP's page and in their respective databases, but all i come up with are various arrangements or recordings, not the originals.

I would like to look into permission to arrange and publish if they are not PD.
ken k

[TubaRay]

I researched this a little some time back. If I understand correctly the 1908 version of "Take Me Out to the Ballgame" is in the public domain. The 1927 version is not. So far as I know, the only difference is in the lyrics. I'm sure you have discovered the two sets of lyrics.

[Rick Denney]

The old march sized band copy of Lassus trombone that our band has, has a copyright date of 1915, which should make it public domain. But I have a collection of Fillmore rags with Lassus Torombone in it copyrighted 1978, although each rag in the book has its origianl copyright dated and the page with Lassus trombone on it has a copyright date of 1915 (as on the old band arrangement).

If you have the 1915 and 1908 originals (or copies) of those tunes, then you can arrange from those original versions without issue. They are in the public domain, having gone into the public domain before 1978 when copyright law changed. Once public always public.

You cannot use the later and still protected "derivative" arrangements as the source for your own arrangements.

In case someone sends you a cease-and-desist letter, I would make sure to have copies of the originals in your possession. Then, a simple letter stating (truthfully, of course) that you based your arrangements on public-domain originals, and that you have those originals in your files, should put the matter to rest.

If there's something you really like about how a later arranger did things, and you want to incorporate that, then you'll need to work it out with that arranger, who is the owner of the copyright to the parts of the arrangement that constitute new original work. Your own arrangement will be similarly protected.

I suspect that the 1978 Fillmore book copyrights certain edits. If there were no edits, and the booklet just reprints public-domain material, then the only thing protected by the later copyright is the front and back covers, table of contents, and any editorial commentary added to the 1978 version. There's no law against slapping a copyright notice on a public-domain document, though it is unenforceable. For example, the Torchinsky books contain a copyright notice, but that protection only applies to the notes he and his publishers added, not to the original parts.

Rick "not a lawyer and not giving legal advice" Denney

[sungfw]

Once public always public.

Not entirely true: for works published in the US by US nationals, that is the case, however, unlike the US Copyright Term Extension Act (1998), the EU act revived expired copyrights, so works originally published outside the US by US nationals and works originally published inside or outside the US by foreign nationals whose copyrights had expired may subsequently have had their copyrights revived (the rule is 95 years after publication), and so have been withdrawn from the public domain.

[Rick Denney]

Once public always public.

Not entirely true: for works published in the US by US nationals, that is the case, however, unlike the US Copyright Term Extension Act (1998), the EU act revived expired copyrights, so works originally published outside the US by US nationals and works originally published inside or outside the US by foreign nationals whose copyrights had expired may subsequently have had their copyrights revived (the rule is 95 years after publication), and so have been withdrawn from the public domain.

Not the case for Fillmore, of course.

Rick "wondering how they enforce the resinstatement of a copyright for works that have had major derivatives published" Denney