Advice/Info on Antique Tuba?

[LOTP]

[quote="imperialbari"]

As you are a more experienced brass person than George, I would like you to measure the inner bores of the 2nd and 4th valve slides.

Klaus[/quote]

2nd slide id= .625
4th slide id=.695
only approximations---precision tools are elsewhere

LOTP (Paul in NJ)

[imperialbari]

2nd slide id= .625
4th slide id=.695
only approximations---precision tools are elsewhere

LOTP (Paul in NJ)

Thanks for the measuring to which I have these comments:

The 2nd slide bore is very similar to the one of 0.634” found in all slides of my 1870 3+1P Besson Eb. The larger 4th slide bore of the Courtois confirms this tuba being more modern than my Besson not only by the year of making. However the Besson could not have an increased 4th slide bore, as the 4th valve sits before the main tuning slide, which then is followed by the main valve block. The different bell engravings of the samples of George and of Paul tell us that this model was made at least from 1889 through 1900. John Howard Foote found it worthwhile importing over the Atlantic. He even may have influenced the design. This leads me to believe, that this tuba was considered a good one during its own era. I never find it relevant to let kid students play very old instruments, as these most often are more fragile. But as said above here I find this dimension of tuba a good beginners' instrument also for kids. This tuba hardly would suffice as the main instrument for a pro level player of today, where more sound often is asked for in band as well as in orchestra. That big sound trend came fairly soon after George's and Paul's Courtois tubas were made. I of course think of the US American monster Eb basses. My suspicion however is that the intonation of this Courtois Eb tuba model is much more reliable than what often is found in the monster Eb tubas.

The differences between the metric and Imperial measuring systems often are impractical to handle. I am brought up with the metric system for all practical purposes but for some dimensions of water piping and of construction wood. Only my rooting in bands inspired by the British brass band style has made me think brass instruments' bores in thousands of an inch. I had to convert the mm indications of the more recent British brass catalogues.

However most American and British made instruments have bores, which may lead to the suspicion, that the piping, which they used as raw materials was made to metric standards. Bores like
0.768
0.748
0.728
0.709
0.689
0.669
0.650
0.630
0.610

are more or less well known from low brasses made by makers traditionally adhering to the Imperial standard of measuring. However the bores listed very closely equal bores of 19.5mm decreasing down to 15.5mm in steps of 0.5mm. The steps look very close to 0.20". Excel tells them to be 0.1968504". When I measure rather old instruments, pre-1930, which have seen a lot of use, then the bore often is slightly larger, than what the standard table suggests. Paul had no very good measuring tools at hand. With these reservations it appears fair to say that the 1870 Besson Eb and the Courtois Eb, subjects of this thread, all have a main bore of 0.630". The Courtois samples then have a 4th valve bore of 0.689", which would be an improvement over the Besson, especially with the 3+1 set-up allowing for a natural conical increase of bore between the 3rd and 4th valves.

Klaus

[George M]

Wow Klaus, I'm impressed.

[LOTP]

Upon further measurement with a metric vernier caliper, I came up with the following figures: 2nd valve slide id = 16.5 mm (.650 "); 4th valve slide id = 17.5 mm (.689")

LOTP (Paul in NJ)

[iiipopes]

As bores were generally smaller at this time, especially if you also compare trombone bores, this seems about right.

The bore not large enough to be "convincing"? Remember a Harvey Phillips orchestral Holton CC even today (although Holton may have stopped making them this year) has a dual bore .665/687.

I tried out one that was a personal instrument brought along for comparison when Jeff Rideout came through town and I got to try out and play all the tubas. Believe me, it was most convincing, especially in the hands of its owner who definitely knew how to use it

[imperialbari]

Upon further measurement with a metric vernier caliper, I came up with the following figures: 2nd valve slide id = 16.5 mm (.650 "); 4th valve slide id = 17.5 mm (.689")

LOTP (Paul in NJ)

Thanks!

The now established bore proportions, especially in context with the sane (as opposed to insanely wide) bell shape, makes me wanting this tuba even more. But lack of space has become a real factor, and my 5th bass tuba (2 are sousas) has just arrived.

The 0.650" bore still is manageable for young beginners. And this tuba also would be attractive for people joining the increasing number of British style brass bands coming up in the US. Watching some of their websites reveals bands not fully manned, which is not ideal, as the best parts of the repertory are very exactly scored for the standard 25 brass players. However some bands get away decently with down to around 17 players. But that takes good balancing between sections. Very large tubas on the easily read Eb part skew the proportions between the BBb, Eb, and euph lines. Even my quite large Besson 981 Eb puts somme challenges on euphs and BBb tubas. Some players do not like compensating tubas. For them a tuba like this old Courtois would be very relevant.

Imagine this tuba set up with 3+2 pistons, the 5th being long whole step or long minor third. That very well could be the soother for those whining over the low C and Bb of their expensive F rotoriums.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[George M]

I tried playing it this morning and it definitely plays! I'm not crazy about all that lip vibration (I think they're still half-numb) and I may have traumatized my dog in the process, but I managed to produce some nice notes for someone who has absolutley no idea what to do with a tuba. I've been told that a serial number can potentially be found by unscrewing the valves and looking inside. I've also been told that this doesn't mean much to many folks as there are scarce little records of Courtois serial numbers, rendering this info somewhat meaningless. I began to try to do this and each of the valves begin to unscrew easily and very smoothly, but decided not to mess with it as I have no idea what I'm doing and do not want to mess up the valves.

[George M]

I noticed that the mouthpiece says CONN 2 on it. I think this is another maker, correct? Would this have been original or replaced some time later? It's very heavy and fits perfectly.

[iiipopes]

Yes, Conn is a completely different manufacturer, and your mouthpiece dates from decades, if not a century, later. But the shank of a BBb tuba mouthpiece has been pretty standard (with European exceptions, beyond the discussion of this thread) all these years, so if you do ever decide you want to play it seriously, it is a straightforward matter to change mouthpieces if you ever decide to do so. But for now, with you being in the start up learning stage, the combination you have is a great combination to learn on to get your bearings.

From your last post, it's good to see you're having fun with it. That's what it's all about. Why else would we all be masochistic to carry around somewhere between 15 and 35 pounds of odiferous brass and spend enough money on one instrument and accessories as would be sufficient otherwise to acquire several nice professional quality electric guitars? (A remark which I resemble with my fanned fret custom instruments)

You will become a trench dweller. We welcome to the depths. And for further enjoyment of the sub latitudes:

http://www.contrabass.com" target="_blank" target="_blank

[LOTP]

[quote="iiipopes"]Yes, Conn is a completely different manufacturer, and your mouthpiece dates from decades, if not a century, later. But the shank of a BBb tuba mouthpiece has been pretty standard (with European exceptions, beyond the discussion of this thread) all these years, so if you do ever decide you want to play it seriously, it is a straightforward matter to change mouthpieces if you ever decide to do so. But for now, with you being in the start up learning stage, the combination you have is a great combination to learn on to get your bearings.
[quote][/quote]

I have my doubts about the fit of this mouthpiece. This is not a BBb tuba but rather a small-bore Eb made in France (That's in Europe). My IDENTICAL tuba requires a small-shank mouthpiece. I don't think a slightly earlier horn would take a larger shank. While the tip of a standard mouthpiece might fit in the receiver, the proper insertion depth can only be achieved with a small-shank mouthpiece like my Wick #4 (NOT 4L). Of course the receiver might have been changed at some point during the last 100 or so years. The only way to be sure is to have it checked-out by a real tubist (tuba-er?) and not the clerk at the local guitar-and-drum store. It's a nice little horn if it's set up properly.

LOTP (Paul in NJ)

BTW, Did Conn ever make a small-shank #2 or has someone turned-down the standard shank?

[LOTP]

I just went back to the pictures posted earlier in this thread. The back view shows the mouthpiece on the horn. It certainly looks to me like a big mouthpiece in a small receiver.

LOTP (Paul in NJ)

[imperialbari]

I just went back to the pictures posted earlier in this thread. The back view shows the mouthpiece on the horn. It certainly looks to me like a big mouthpiece in a small receiver.

LOTP (Paul in NJ)

I think Paul is right. We even use the same mouthpiece, the DW4, for our old small receiver Eb tubas.

As I remember things, at least some of the US made monster Eb had small receivers and had mouthpieces, which would be considered very small today. Some correspondents have suggested that the odd intonation patterns of some of the monster Eb's are cause by the use of too large mouthpieces by modern players.

Klaus

[George M]

I'm thinking that I might like to clean and shine it up to see how nice I can get it looking. What is the best way to do this? I believe it is silver plate over brass - with some areas having more silver and others having more brass.

[LOTP]

[quote="George M"]I'm thinking that I might like to clean and shine it up to see how nice I can get it looking. What is the best way to do this? I believe it is silver plate over brass - with some areas having more silver and others having more brass.[/quote]

Two things:

!. Try using a non-abrasive silver cleaner before resorting to something more aggressive. You want to save as much of the remaining silverplate as possible. Cut strips of rag 1" x 12" in order to thread it between the tubes. Have fun!

2.To further illustrate what Klaus and I have been saying about small old Eb tubas: Last year I bought an old Lyon and Healy Eb from E**Y. Although it had been listed as a BARITONE, I recognized it for what it was. No one was bidding on it so I got it VERY cheaply. If the seller had used the word "tuba" in the listing he probably would have gotten MUCH more for the instrument. The bore at the second valve is only 14.5 mm (.571"). No wonder they thought it was a baritone! A SMALL shank mouthpiece is slightly too large. To use a "standard" BBb mouthpiece on such an instrument would be totally inappropriate.

LOTP (Paul in NJ)

[iiipopes]

I stand corrected. For some reason I thought it was a BBb tuba. Well, that does make a difference.

About the only thing readily available that has the small shank that is reasonable in price as well is a Wick 3 mouthpiece. But it is rather deep. But it also should match this horn very well.

[George M]

Thanks for the cleaning advice! It really is currently quite grungy. I think it will be fun to see how nice I can get it looking, especially if I'm able to get the local university tuba professor to try it out.

Also, I'm considering selling it. A couple people have expressed interest in it, but I honestly have no idea of it's value.
Any opinions on what you think a realistic range in value might be or any suggestions for getting it appraissed? Thanks for any and all advice. I really appreciate all that I have discovered and learned from the nice folks here.

[George M]

I'm excited to report that I'm meeting with a professional symphony tuba player in just a couple days for him to give it a test drive. He seemed excited to hear about it and try it out. I really look forward to hearing a real pro play it. I'll report back with how it goes. Anyone have any suggestions for when I meet with him or questions they would like me to ask him?

[LOTP]

[quote="George M"]I'm excited to report that I'm meeting with a professional symphony tuba player in just a couple days for him to give it a test drive. He seemed excited to hear about it and try it out. I really look forward to hearing a real pro play it. I'll report back with how it goes. Anyone have any suggestions for when I meet with him or questions they would like me to ask him?[/quote]

Its been a whole week. How did the test-play turn out?

LOTP (Paul in NJ)

[George M]

The test play was delayed due to Tropical Storm Fay which destroyed my house and the symphony player went out of town on vacation with his family. We should be getting together this week. I'll let you know how it goes! Thanks for the interest.

[George M]

Hello tubenet,
I met with the symphony tuba player last Friday and it went very well! I think we both were quite surprised. I had no real idea if it would play well or at all. I think he was interested but skeptical at best. As it turned out, the tuba played very well and my new friend is a monster player! I guess that kind of goes without saying as a member of the symphony. He brought tears to my eyes as he wailed some monster blues seated right next to me - really an amazing experience. He liked the horn - said it wouldn't be something that he could play with the symphony, but said it really was a nice little horn. The valves all functioned perfectly to his surprise - he oiled them and checked them for airtightness. All of the tuning slides worked perfectly. It really was a thrillnig experience for me as I have such admiration for master musicians. Let me know if you have any questions.