Early tuba orchestral parts

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Someone said "the superior tone of the tuba" compared to the ophicleide.

Nonsense. They're different instruments; might as well compare tubas and saxophones.

I direct you here for the supposedly inferior tone of the ophicleide:

http://www.ophicleide.com/" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

Great site in general, but scroll to the bottom for some samples.

J.c.S.

I said it, and that remains my opinion. In the context of orchestration I stand by my statement, but I didn't mean it as a general rule.

What I meant to say, and perhaps didn't say clearly enough, is that the tuba better balanced the ever-increasing forces present in the orchestras of the day. The intrinsic volume of the ophicleide simply wasn't enough to keep up. It's the same argument as string basses over gambas, oboes over shawms, or flutes over fifes.

As for them being different instruments...one was clearly developed and used to substitute for the other. But you do bring a valid point...I've always thought of the ophicleide as more closely related to the bassoon than the tuba. That is, of course, just my opinion. You are free to disagree, but I do have to take a bit of exception with my opinion being called "nonsense." I certainly wouldn't say that about your opinion, which is perfectly valid.

[Z-Tuba Dude]

"You spoke of Wagner's desire to extend the tuba tone upwards...I would say he was enamored of the horn sound and wanted to extend it downwards..."

Todd, Thanks for that great info! My understanding though, is that the tenor Wagner tuben are the pitch equivalent of the Bb side of the double (French) horn, while the bass Wt's are equivalent to the F side of same (or, alternately, the same pitch as an F tuba), which would make them at the same pitch level as the horn section.

Also, in the category of guilt by association, I have noticed that in the orchestration of The Ring, the tuben are quite often found simultaneously in the aural company of the contrabass tuba, with no one else of significance, to be seen anywhere around. That is why I believed that Wagner thought of them as more tuba-like, than horn-like (in spite of their operators' best efforts!).

Great discussion!

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Yes, the whole pitch-level thing basically boils down to Wagner wanting another voice between the horns and trombones (which he originally score the Valhalla theme for and disliked the timbre). It's a very subtle disagreement and your arguments have persuaded me somewhat.

Thanks to you as well for the lively discussion...you have very valid points to make, and it is fun to bounce these sorts of things around sometimes. I appreciate the fact that we are able to disagree about a couple of things in a civil manner without resorting to petty behavior and language like "nonsense" and "pfft." I knew it could be done.

[Wyvern]

Meistersinger, Reinzi, Dutchman, and Loehngren (sp?) are all sanctioned replacements for the ophicleide by the composer.

Not Meistersinger! That is a later Wagner opera (1868) and was originally written for tuba! By then, the 1860's the tuba was certainly established.

However I look at it that just because early Wagner operas and works by Berlioz were originally scored with ophicleide, or serpent does not mean that the composers did not prefer them played including the more modern tuba. They just scored them for what was available at the time, so maybe we should not necessarily worry too much about playing them with the more modern instrument?

I cannot think of any orchestral works prior to the 1860's which were definitely written with tuba - can anyone name one?

Regarding Wagner tuba, they are a cross between horns and tubas. A tuba sounding horn, or a horn like tuba - all depends on your point of view. They were originally based on the oval baritone popular in German bands (which is a tenor tuba), but modified to be played by the hornists in the orchestra. They were designed to play with the contrabass tuba to provide a tuba choir in the orchestra. If Wagner had wanted a horn like sound, he would simply have used the french horns.

[MartyNeilan]

Good discussion (especially for TubeNet - wow!)
Theory regarding Wagner tubas -
If trombones with a timbre like a "Thayerized" Bach 42 and Bach 50 had been around, would Wagner have even found the need to create an instrument for that "tubbier" midrange voice??

[imperialbari]

Good discussion (especially for TubeNet - wow!)
Theory regarding Wagner tubas -
If trombones with a timbre like a "Thayerized" Bach 42 and Bach 50 had been around, would Wagner have even found the need to create an instrument for that "tubbier" midrange voice??

Horn players put that question this way:

Would the Wagner Tuben have been invented, if the hornd back then had had the low range of a modern large bore double horn?

What can be said with a high degree of certainty is, that Wagner did not want the smooth fatness of the oval Tenorhörner (but for the leadpipe and the mirroring the basis for the Wagner tenor tubas in Bb) or the oval Baritöne (with the same but's as before plus a lot of added cylindrical tubing the basis for the Wagner bass tubas in F). These ovals in Bb could have been bought off the shelf, and the trombonists could have played them with much less trouble, than the horn players experience when playing the Wagner Tuben.

In one televised performance of Bruckner's 8th by the Israeli orchestra of Zubin Mehta there was an F-contrabass trombone seated next to the 8th horn/4th Wagner tuba in F (one row ahead of the other trombones). I have a strong suspicion, that the purpose was a doubling of the lowest Wagner Tuben line.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[cambrook]

In one televised performance of Bruckner's 8th by the Israeli orchestra of Zubin Mehta there was an F-contrabass trombone seated next to the 8th horn/4th Wagner tuba in F (one row ahead of the other trombones). I have a strong suspicion, that the purpose was a doubling of the lowest Wagner Tuben line.

I'm sure you're right Klauss. When the Israel Philharmonic toured Australia a few years ago playing Bruckner 7 I was engaged to play bass tuba doubling the lowest Wagner tuba part for exactly that reason. The 4th WT player was not able to match up to what Maestro Mehta wanted to hear. It was quite a challenge to play softly enough to blend in this situation, but a rare privilege to sit directly in front of that first-class low brass section. Who knows, perhaps if there was a contrabass trombone available I might not have got the gig

[jtuba]

In one televised performance of Bruckner's 8th by the Israeli orchestra of Zubin Mehta there was an F-contrabass trombone seated next to the 8th horn/4th Wagner tuba in F (one row ahead of the other trombones). I have a strong suspicion, that the purpose was a doubling of the lowest Wagner Tuben line.

I'm sure you're right Klauss. When the Israel Philharmonic toured Australia a few years ago playing Bruckner 7 I was engaged to play bass tuba doubling the lowest Wagner tuba part for exactly that reason. The 4th WT player was not able to match up to what Maestro Mehta wanted to hear. It was quite a challenge to play softly enough to blend in this situation, but a rare privilege to sit directly in front of that first-class low brass section. Who knows, perhaps if there was a contrabass trombone available I might not have got the gig

This may very well be a Mehta idiosyncrasy. Toby Hanks mentioned in lessons playing with the NY Phil the 4th WT part in order to help stabilize pitch. I don't remember who he said the conductor was, but Mehta was a music director and conducts regularly in NY.

I saw a performance in Korea of Bruckner 7 and they didn't use Wagner tuba at all. Two euph and two F tubas.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

I cannot think of any orchestral works prior to the 1860's which were definitely written with tuba - can anyone name one?

Definitely? No, I wasn't there and records are, of course, sketchy.

But I'll submit Eine Faust Overture to the jury. The last revision was completed in 1855. Almost a tuba feature in the first few bars...still on the audition lists, too!

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Wow...a lot of weird things in that Adler text.

I've never seen any evidence that Wagner "conceived of" the tuba. It would be intersting to read more about that...James, does Mr. Adler use any citations in that paragraph leading to another source, perhaps?

As I pointed out from my research on Berlioz in the D. Kern Holoman text, Berlioz didn't "re-do" the Symphonie Fantastique part as much as simply change the part to read "tuba or ophicleide." Holoman suggests that happened in the 1840s and 1850s, much earlier than Mr. Adler's date for the "first appearance" of tubas in orchestras. I'm still hanging my (admittedly, unproven) hat on Eine Faust Overture.

A trip to France/Germany and a look at some historical manuscripts would certainly be eye-opening...I hope that someone picks up this ball in the tuba community and does some in-depth research someday. So many sources disagree it's hard to make an educated statement about the topic.

[Wyvern]

But I'll submit Eine Faust Overture to the jury. The last revision was completed in 1855. Almost a tuba feature in the first few bars...still on the audition lists, too!

Certainly agree that tuba was included from the 1855 revision, but Clifford Bevan in his book "The Tuba family" seems to think it was added and not in the original 1840 version, so I am not sure if that is so very different to Berlioz changing parts from ophicleide to tuba in that the overture was not conceived originally with tuba?

What was the the first work conceived with tuba remains open...

It would be interesting to know what happened to cause the tuba to suddenly start appearing in a number of symphonic works from the 1860's. Did Eine Faust Overture create such a big impression?

[Todd S. Malicoate]

I am not sure if that is so very different to Berlioz changing parts from ophicleide to tuba in that the overture was not conceived originally with tuba?

That's a good point...there really isn't a difference.

Next in line...Der fliegende Holländer from 1843, perhaps? Looks like I need to visit the library again tonight after work...they certainly have many collections of Wagner's letters, which I saw yesterday but didn't peruse.

EDIT: On Neptune's advice I'll do a bit of research on Liszt as well.

[Wyvern]

I have just thought of Liszt! He composed his first 12 symphonic poems 1848 to 1858 and I believe they all include tuba. Ce qu'on entend sur la montagne is No. 1, so could this be the earliest?

I believe Liszt did influence Wagner, did he not?

[windshieldbug]

It would be interesting to know what happened to cause the tuba to suddenly start appearing in a number of symphonic works from the 1860's. Did Eine Faust Overture create such a big impression?

I would think that as reliable valved BAND instruments became more common (including horns), more composers sought to add them to the orchestral mix, and exponentially, trumpets, horns, and bass tubas became much more prevalent.

[Z-Tuba Dude]

I guess we should look at the bright side:

• 1. How long ago was the saxophone invented?
  2. When was it integrated into the orchestra?
  3. ....or has it been, yet?

[Wyvern]

I know the tuba claims its origin from Germany

I am just going to ask this: Around this 1860s time.....what was going on in Russia, esp with the tubatype instruments

One thought that occurs to me was that it was about this time that Rimsky-Korsakov started composing and he was from a naval background, so may have been familiar with the tuba from military bands.

Also remember that around that time at the height of the romantic period composers were looking to add new colors to their music, so probably added the tuba with that specific aim.

[Wyvern]

I guess we should look at the bright side:

• 1. How long ago was the saxophone invented?
  2. When was it integrated into the orchestra?
  3. ....or has it been, yet?

Does that not show that most composers have better taste

[imperialbari]

Re. Russia:

http://www.tuba.org.ru/int.php

Klaus

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Very interesting site, Klaus. Thanks!

[KevinMadden]

Late to chime in, and sorry to return to something mentioned about 4 pages ago but,

On the subject of 'drop the needle' tests;

I took two of the three required semesters of Music history here at Ic with a Dr. Mark Radice. His approach to 'drop the needle' tests was a bit different than some of the other professors, he would pick music intentionally not covered in class. The correct way to answer the questions was to write observations about what you were hearing and then make an assumption about the Composer and date of composition. I learned much more about the general details of the music of an era this way than I did memorizing specific charts. It was also a less stressful exam to prepare for.