11 pieces for orchestra with low Db = steak dinner

[Todd S. Malicoate]

I'm starting a new thread to keep from hijacking another one any farther. Anyone who is disinterested should read no farther, or at least don't bitch about it.

James, our very own tubashaman, has made the following claim to a poster asking questions about the need for a 5th valve on a Bb tuba:

In alot of orchestral literature, you do get pedal Dbs (needed 5th valve ona CC tuba without doing a false tone).

So, seeing this statement for what it is, I made an offer:

I'd love to see "a lot" of examples of that low Db in orchestral literature, James...and it's not a "pedal note" (haven't we had this discussion on here before???). I'll present you with a steak dinner if you can quote more than ten (which, to me, still doesn't constitute "a lot"...should be easy for you).

There you go, James. Find eleven orchestral pieces with a low Db in the tuba part. This one:

I will put a bit of a restriction on your search, since I'm assuming all the risk and asking nothing if you can't come up with the eleven pieces. You have to use reasonably-known works...no single-performance, way-out-there modern works that never get played outside their "premiere." You know what I mean...these need to be substantial works that get programmed at least a little bit.

Come up with eleven and I'll send you a gift certificate to your favorite steak house. Good luck!

[Todd S. Malicoate]

I have never needed my pedal Db in orchestra. Pedal D is a prominent feature in Young Person's Guide. But tuba become pretty inaudible that low and is only really useful as a discernible pitch source and color at low dynamics from pedal D on down, IMO. (Since these notes hardly appear in the lit I would hazard a guess that most composers would agree with that statement. It is a neat thing, but it is a fairly useless thing.)

I have needed that note a few times in band literature, however.

Please note that I have not played my instrument's full rep and do not know the answer to this question. I have never personally encountered this pitch in a manner that I can remember. It is a rare bird. I have played a 4 valved Alexander for the past 12 seasons and have never need that false tone in my job. I practice it a lot and have needed it in local bands and have even needed it on some freelance gigs (chorus and orchestra). I am sure that is it called for somewhere. I just don't know where.

I have needed lower than that, however. Again, just not that often.

I've had the same experience, Wade, although mine is much, much more limited than yours, of course. That low Db was one of the best, most resonant notes on a Yamaha I used to play...I would relish any chance to play it, so it was always "special" to me when I could find one.

I'll ask you, since I chastised James for the same thing...why do you call this note a "pedal?" Since it is above the fundamental pitch of the instrument, I would think it would just be "low Db," unless you are playing it on an F or Eb tuba, of course. How much higher up do you still refer to pitches as "pedals?" Just curious...nomenclature is often different from person to person, but I like to try and be as precise as possible with language.

[The Big Ben]

(Am I "piling on" or being mean again? Please let me know if this is the case… )

No, this isn't piling on. It's a constructive comment by a Tubaman. Todd's challenge is a good one, a good natured "put up or shut up" from another Tubaman to a dude who is trying to walk on the path to being a Tubaman.

James could probably use a good meal. You know how those college kids are...

Jeff "Not a Tubaman but happy with his lot anyway..." Benedict

[sloan]

I'll ask you, since I chastised James for the same thing...why do you call this note a "pedal?" Since it is above the fundamental pitch of the instrument, I would think it would just be "low Db," unless you are playing it on an F or Eb tuba, of course. How much higher up do you still refer to pitches as "pedals?" Just curious...nomenclature is often different from person to person, but I like to try and be as precise as possible with language.

I think the best policy is to call a note a "pedal" if and only if you play it with your foot.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

I think the best policy is to call a note a "pedal" if and only if you play it with your foot.

Thank you for the laugh "out loud." It made a long day somewhat better!

The whole "pedal" debate may be fodder for another thread, or perhaps a poll...but sometime later. I am curious how people think about the extreme low register and the names we use for those notes.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

now band literature and I got ya

Perhaps, but that ain't what you said.

In alot of orchestral literature, you do get pedal Dbs (needed 5th valve ona CC tuba without doing a false tone).

is pretty specific, and you were advising another poster who's making a difficult decision about what horn to buy.

Our orchestra here is almost nonexistent, so I don't know repertoire that well

Exactly. So, ask questions or start a discussion so we can join in researching a topic (as we did with the early tuba literature). It will serve you much better than speaking authoritatively (or, at least, giving that impression) on a subject you don't know that well.

[eupher61]

James, sorry to say it, but you've been called.

I can't think of any Banned literature that uses the Db in question. I am out of touch with contemporary stuff, certainly, so that may have changed. I can only think of a couple of Ds, one being "Lincolnshire Posey".

My definition of "pedal", derived from who knows where, is fundamental pitches. Thus, there are 7 "pedal" notes on a 3 valve instrument.

[jtuba]

I believe that Wozzeck has the CC#, it's been a long time since I looked at the part. 9 to go?

[Roger Lewis]

I Played an orchestral version of "Chariots of Fire" with the Evensville Philharmonic and the only note you played through the whole thing was a pedal Db. Wozzeck has a bunch of them in the 1st act as I recall. The Russell Peck Trumpet Concerto has a few as well.

More later after my 3rd cup of coffee.

Peace.
Roger

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Okay...so far, Guerre Lieder (Schoenberg), Wozzeck (Berg), and the Trumpet Concerto by Russell Peck.

Pops stuff, or somebody's arrangement of movie music - I ain't countin' it. Keep 'em coming!

[Ed Jones]

Prokofiev Seventh Symphony. There is a CC# in the first movement.

[bttmbow]

More opera stuff for you... jtuba is correct; Wozzeck has 'em.

Here's another, off the top o' the morning head: Janacek- The Makropolous Case. There's a fun spot where the tuba and contrabassoon do some Db to DDb octave activity. I can't remember it exactly.

More later, after my first cup o' coffee!
Chris

[The Big Ben]

Semantical note from the Fat Guy on the little three-legged stool:

"When referring to an unknown quantity, the word 'some' is much safer than "a lot".

HTH

Jeff "Captain English" Benedict

[NDSPTuba]

Pedal for me ( coming from an old horn players perspective ) is any note that you can't play an octave lower than. So for me ( at least currently ) anything lower than a low F, I would call a pedal tone.

[cjk]

I'm starting a new thread to keep from hijacking another one any farther. Anyone who is disinterested should read no farther, or at least don't bitch about it.

James, our very own tubashaman, has made the following claim to a poster asking questions about the need for a 5th valve on a Bb tuba:

In alot of orchestral literature, you do get pedal Dbs (needed 5th valve ona CC tuba without doing a false tone).

So, seeing this statement for what it is, I made an offer:

I'd love to see "a lot" of examples of that low Db in orchestral literature, James...and it's not a "pedal note" (haven't we had this discussion on here before???). I'll present you with a steak dinner if you can quote more than ten (which, to me, still doesn't constitute "a lot"...should be easy for you).

There you go, James. Find eleven orchestral pieces with a low Db in the tuba part. This one:

I will put a bit of a restriction on your search, since I'm assuming all the risk and asking nothing if you can't come up with the eleven pieces. You have to use reasonably-known works...no single-performance, way-out-there modern works that never get played outside their "premiere." You know what I mean...these need to be substantial works that get programmed at least a little bit.

Come up with eleven and I'll send you a gift certificate to your favorite steak house. Good luck!

The way I read this, the steak dinner was offered to James (aka tubashaman) if *HE* could quote more than ten orchestral pieces which contain a low D flat, not the community at large. While this thread is extremely interesting, the criteria specified for the free steak dinner has not happened. Sorry.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Cockaigne Overture by Elgar
John Adams' music-
Naive and Sentimental Music,
Harmonilehre (sp?),
On the the Transmigration of Souls
Thomas Ades, called Tevot
György Ligeti's piece Lontano
Janacek- The Makropolous Case
Guerre Lieder (Schoenberg),
Wozzeck (Berg)
Trumpet Concerto by Russell Peck
Prokofiev Seventh Symphony

Well done! Unfortunately for you, my offer wasn't to the first person to compile eleven works. Still, nice of you to confirm my suspicions that at least eleven such pieces exist.

Todd S. "who bets Nethereuph doesn't think that's "alot" of the orchestral repertoire for tuba" Malicoate

[jtuba]

I think the next list should be the 11 tuba players on this forum who will ever get a chance to play these pieces. Fifth valves are great, but do we really need them for most of the work any of us will do? Maybe we should get Meinl Weston to consider the Baer and Thor if four valve versions. Should cut some of the price, and with the long tuning slides on them, the CC# is probably there.

[windshieldbug]

Todd, James could have just written 11 pieces, and you'd still owe him the dinner!
You need to be still more specific...

I bet you lose a lot of bar bets

[sungfw]

I'm starting a new thread to keep from hijacking another one any farther. Anyone who is disinterested should read no farther, or at least don't bitch about it.

James, our very own tubashaman, has made the following claim to a poster asking questions about the need for a 5th valve on a Bb tuba:

In alot of orchestral literature, you do get pedal Dbs (needed 5th valve ona CC tuba without doing a false tone).

So, seeing this statement for what it is, I made an offer:

I'd love to see "a lot" of examples of that low Db in orchestral literature, James...and it's not a "pedal note" (haven't we had this discussion on here before???). I'll present you with a steak dinner if you can quote more than ten (which, to me, still doesn't constitute "a lot"...should be easy for you).

There you go, James. Find eleven orchestral pieces with a low Db in the tuba part. This one:

I will put a bit of a restriction on your search, since I'm assuming all the risk and asking nothing if you can't come up with the eleven pieces. You have to use reasonably-known works...no single-performance, way-out-there modern works that never get played outside their "premiere." You know what I mean...these need to be substantial works that get programmed at least a little bit.

Come up with eleven and I'll send you a gift certificate to your favorite steak house. Good luck!

The way I read this, the steak dinner was offered to James (aka tubashaman) if *HE* could quote more than ten orchestral pieces which contain a low D flat, not the community at large. While this thread is extremely interesting, the criteria specified for the free steak dinner has not happened. Sorry.

Um ... methinks Todd better reach for his wallet and start praying that James' favorite steakhouse isn't Bradley Ogden ($33/oz Kobe beef) or CUT ($160 8 oz ribeyes), because Todd DID NOT specify that James had to come up with eleven on his own, only that he had to QUOTE them. So according to the terms of the wager, all James has to do is quote Nethereuph's post (which he hasn't done yet) to win the steak dinner.

(Notice as well that there is not time limit on the wager, so even if Todd does retroactively change the terms of the wager, James can still win by coming up with 11 on his own.)

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Todd, James could have just written 11 pieces, and you'd still owe him the dinner!
You need to be still more specific...

I bet you lose a lot of bar bets

Nope...I bartended for several years while I lived in Lawrence...I know better than to bother.

I think you might need to re-read my first post in this thread again...particularly the line about "reasonably well-known works."