Concert Dress Codes

[Rick Denney]

The final straw was when a brass player, not tuba, showed up with no tie and wearing white socks (because that was all he could find).

That's what you get for living in the Seattle area. During my visits to that area, I've noticed very little ability on the part of the natives to dress formally. I do not find it surprising that "grunge" originated there. I'm also envious.

I remember when our band in San Antonio went formal for the first time, using a performance for the Texas Bandmaster's Association as the motivation. We all bought tuxedos from Barry Manufacturing. The formal shirts came with plastic shirt studs that were only intended to make the shirt look like a formal shirt in the package. But surprisingly many of the musicians showed up with those black plastic ersatz shirt studs. In fact, I might have been one of them. The tux material was sheet plastic run through a mold to press in the pattern of weaving, or at least that's how it seemed in the steamy San Antonio heat. It was like wearing an insulated garbage bag.

I bought my current tux at Syms, and found one that is actually well-made (of breathable wool) for much less than the price of a good suit. But if you want quality accessories, they'll cost more than the tux.

Our rules specify black tie--code for a black dinner jacket (i.e., not tails) with a black bow tie. They don't specify the collar style, and I'm glad--I absolutely despise ascot (wing-collar) shirts. I also prefer a vest to a cummerbund.

On the subject of four-in-hand, when the wide end is held to keep an open loop through which the tail will be inserted in the last step, the shape of the tie being held resembles the numeral "4". That's why it's called "four in hand". I can tie those in my sleep, with one hand, while driving the car.

Rick "thinking Seattle has set the trend to (often excessively) casual dress" Denney

[sungfw]

On the subject of four-in-hand, when the wide end is held to keep an open loop through which the tail will be inserted in the last step, the shape of the tie being held resembles the numeral "4". That's why it's called "four in hand".

That's one proposed, though doubtful, etymology.

Another is that it's the knot four-in-hand carriage drivers used tie the reins. Yet another is that it's the knot that the drivers of those carriages used to tie their scarves. (Incidentally, Prince Phillip of Great Britain is an accomplished four-in-hand driver and racer, although presumably, whatever knot he ties his ties with is a Windsor.) Still another is that it got its name from the Four-in-Hand Club in London (whose purpose is to promote coaching, organize drives, and preserve the traditions of coaching), whose members are purported to have made neckware fashionable.

[MaryAnn]

Most orchestras I've played in required suits and long ties for concerts before 6 pm, and tuxedos with bow ties (usually black) for evening concerts. I'm speaking about men's attire here--------I can't remember the dress code for female players. (Maybe Mary Ann can chime in here-----she was a professional violinist in the Tucson Symphony.)

I think you've got plenty to go on for the dress code, but I wanted to correct a minor inaccuracy....I was pro in the Albany, NY symphony orchestra, when I was quite a bit younger than I am now. 20 years ago I subbed for a few times one season in Tucson Symphony, and after that I didn't do any professional violining, instead finding my true calling as a brass player.

In all formal orchestral venues, it was "long black" for women; back in ASO days it was long back skirt, but by the TSO days it had become permissble to wear slacks, even a tux if you felt like it. Lately there has been a push to get the bare arms out of sight as well as the bare legs. Can't have the audience doing more looking than listening!

I still remember one fairly recent horn recital in which the lady solist seated on stage wore a short shirt and faced a particular segment of the audience, which was sparse, having only two guys sitting there. I observed what they must be seeing at eye level, looked at them, saw them sort of giggle at each other and then get up and move to another part of the seating area, out of the, ah, line of fire. Apparently they preferred to listen. I do not know what the lady was thinking when she decided what to wear; it wasn't as if being the soloist came as a surprise to her. From thence we have dress codes!

MA

[OldsRecording]

' appears to be the old "Cub Scout" way of tying a tie...(back when Cub Scouts were required to learn that)

bloke "as opposed to a 'Windsor' knot, which is a larger knot - and uses up much more of the tie."

I believe the 'four-in-hand' knot is also known as a half-Windsor. In a Windsor knot, you wrap it around on the other side, so the knot is symetrical, but much larger.

[sungfw]

I believe the 'four-in-hand' knot is also known as a half-Windsor.

The four-in-hand is a single wrap knot; the half Windsor is a double wrap knot; so the four-in-hand knot is asymmetric, while properly tied half Windsor is symmetric.

Half Windsor:


Four-in-hand:

[Carroll]

They don't specify the collar style, and I'm glad--I absolutely despise ascot (wing-collar) shirts.
Rick "thinking Seattle has set the trend to (often excessively) casual dress" Denney

Wing collar shirts should not even be an option for black tie dress, anyway. The cut away collar is only for white tie (and tails). But the formal shop will certainly sell you one with your tux (which is semi-formal, by the way).

[sloan]

In general, dress is never completely assumed. The personnel manager communicates the dress for each concert (no matter how routine) to the musicians.

This has been my experience in orchestras that I have subbed with. This is not something that is left to chance.

while I am sure you are quite right, I beg to differ.

Let me explain.

One of my hobby-horses (I have a full stable) is the LACK of uniformity in the dress of women in the orchestra.

Just about every orchestra I've seen in the last 20 years or so has exhibited the same effect. The men are dressed nearly identically, while the women appear in "just about anything, as long as it's Black". Lengths, textures, accessories, EVERYTHING varies wildly across the stage. You even see the occasional handbag out on stage - sometimes under the seat, sometimes slung across the back of the chair.

This leads to the natural question: what is the *point* of an orchestra dress code? I always assumed that one purpose was to achieve a level of uniformity (and blandness - so the MUSIC was the center of attention). If that's the purpose...it ain't happening.

If it's simply to indicate a certain level of *formality* and for the orchestra to always be dressed "one level more formal than the audience" - but otherwise reflect the normal day-to-day variation in men and women's dress - then I suppose this is OK. But, somehow I had come to expect *uniformity* rather than "in the right general ballpark".

[sloan]

It is very revealing by the careful descriptions just what both our groups have had to deal with in the past. As we say here, "Nearly every word in the Master Agreement is in direct response to things that have actually occurred." If it says that we are not required to play outdoor services while snow is falling it is because the management has actually tried to do this in the past. Ridiculous, but true.

There is a saying in aviation: "Every checklist is written in blood"

[sloan]

Our rules specify black tie--code for a black dinner jacket (i.e., not tails) with a black bow tie. They don't specify the collar style, and I'm glad--I absolutely despise ascot (wing-collar) shirts.

How very "old school" of you.

I like that about you.

"wing-collars" are *not* "Black Tie". Period.

Personally, I blame the high school band directors.

[you do know that "Black Tie" is "Semi-Formal", don't you?]

[OldsRecording]

I believe the 'four-in-hand' knot is also known as a half-Windsor.

The four-in-hand is a single wrap knot; the half Windsor is a double wrap knot; so the four-in-hand knot is asymmetric, while properly tied half Windsor is symmetric.

Half Windsor:


Four-in-hand:

I stand corrected.

[Rick Denney]

[you do know that "Black Tie" is "Semi-Formal", don't you?]

That may be a bit more old-school than even me.

But I do recall reading about our British ancestors wearing dinner jackets for a trip to a night club--not formal. And that a black cutaway jacket (tails to most folks) were formal evening wear, but not for dinner, which was white tie (and white tails). The non-cutaway tails were "morning coats" and worn when formal wear was required before 6 P.M. Of course, these were the dress codes for normal family activities. I do remember grumbling when my wife required me to wear white tie and tails at our afternoon wedding.

And I'm probably remembering it all wrong anyway and haven't done the internet research that some here apparently have. I have no interest in living my life that way, and apparently neither does anyone else. I used to wear business suits to work, and even after the work became more casual, I wore business suits for teaching short courses. Note--these were suits, NOT "sport coats". Both of those activities settled down to sport coats and blazers. Now, I wear jeans to work and dockers with dress shirts for teaching. And I am still overdressed compared to my public-agency students. Now, we have rules to keep people from wearing T-shirts with holes in them, and many women adopt what seems to me rather sleezy dress in the workplace now.

For your general question regarding the point of formal dress for musicians, I think your second objective--that of being dressed one notch better than the audience--is the usual objective. That's a display of respect for the audience, it seems to me, and it also encourages a respectful response. I always wore a coat and tie to hear the symphony, even when I went on a weeknight (which I usually did) as a matter of respect for the musicians. But my observation of symphonies in more pretentious cities (ahem--Austin--ahem--Dallas) was that many male patrons wore tuxedos and left at intermission. Women may like their men to wear uniforms, but they seem resistant to the idea themselves. At least the tuxedos are black and white, and not burgundy with ruffles everywhere and a velvet tie like what I wore to my senior prom.

Rick "who doesn't miss the $200 monthly dry cleaning bill" Denney

[TubaRay]

many women adopt what seems to me rather sleezy dress in the workplace now.

Isn't it great? I mean er... Don't you think that is really unprofessional of them?

[Rick Denney]

many women adopt what seems to me rather sleezy dress in the workplace now.

Isn't it great? I mean er... Don't you think that is really unprofessional of them?

Ray, we've been through this already. It all has to do with qualifications.

Rick "professional qualifications, of course" Denney

[sloan]

bloke "...specifically because they are *women."

-------------------------------------------------------
*Until fairly recent times, women did not play in professional orchestras.

Um...was that also "...specifically because they are *women*"???

Cake...have it...eat it...pick one.