11 pieces for orchestra with low Db = steak dinner

[windshieldbug]

Well then, I stand very corrected

"reasonably well-known works."

Well-known by whom? What constitutes reasonable?

[Matt Good]

Also, Prokofiev 6th has a great low Db in the second mvt. Great stuff.

Also, along with John Adams' "Harmonielehre" his "Slonimsky's Earbox" has a low Db too.

If anyone has a chance to play John Harbison's "Ulysses Raft", there is a solo cadenza for the tuba that ends with a low Db. I played that piece many moons ago in the Fellowship orchestra at Tanglewood.

-Matt

[Rick Denney]

Todd, let's face it, the Big Guns Who Lurk have engaged you as avatars for your favorite antagonist.

I know you were trying to make a point, and sometimes you have to be a bit sharp to make a point (to quote one of our other professional antagonists, DP), but you have stirred an anthill with bigger ants than you suspected.

A steak dinner might be the easiest way out of this situation. And we all know James needs a good meal badly. Chuck Jackson already told him to--no, that wasn't a steak dinner, come to think of it.

Outback has gift cards, by the way. Even Abilene probably has an Outback.

Rick "who recommends smiling and backing away slowly" Denney

[Todd S. Malicoate]

But I wont take the challenge, yall are are right

May the Big Guns missed that line.

I submit, respectfully, that the wager was resolved in the first few posts of the thread. The point was also made by then. Those Big Guns are just stirring the pot for their own pleasure, and it doesn't bother me a bit.

However, I do think it was an interesting survey of pieces with some low notes...at least nine or ten now that I've never heard of.

Todd S. "who is not afraid of ants, but who wonders if the pickiest among us will simply dismiss James' concession because they enjoy the banter so much" Malicoate

[Rick Denney]

Todd S. "who is not afraid of ants, but who wonders if the pickiest among us will simply dismiss James' concession because they enjoy the banter so much" Malicoate

Maybe it's because after all the specific targeting (not all undeserved, of course), some of us really want to see you buy James a steak.

Rick "and moreso because he conceded graciously" Denney

[MartyNeilan]

Going one semitone below "pedal" Db.....
It is interesting to note that "pedal C" (A true pedal on a F, Eb, or CC tuba; a very low valved note on a BBb) is probably even more common. A big selling point for many 4 valve BBb tubas sold on the "left coast" is the slide pull available to reach this low valved note. I have not had the fortune (or misfortune) to play The Lion King musical yet, but from what I understand "pedal C" is a very important note in that book.

[sloan]

Todd S. "who is not afraid of ants, but who wonders if the pickiest among us will simply dismiss James' concession because they enjoy the banter so much" Malicoate

Maybe it's because after all the specific targeting (not all undeserved, of course), some of us really want to see you buy James a steak.

Rick "and moreso because he conceded graciously" Denney

In the spirit of re-definition and perverse interpretation, I recommend that the steak dinner be replaced by 2 White Castle sliders.

[ZNC Dandy]

Now get me if im wrong, the lowest note in our literature orchestral/band wise is the PEDAL G in Varese's Deserts
'

That piece by Varese is Arcana But IIRC. That may be a typo. I seem to recall Mr. Pokorny mentioning something about that in a WFMT interview.

As far as a low Db...I have the score to Prokofiev's Ivan the Terrible in front of me, several in the 2nd part. Same for his October XX Cantata. I seem to recall some in Gotterdammerung or Siegfried as well. Eliot Goldenthal's Fire Water Paper also.

[jtuba]

make a CC with only 4 valves....sure....

Solo literature often does contain that low Db. Introduction and Dance (barat), Gregson concerto, 3 Furies jump right to my head without opening up a piece.

Optional in the Barat, I think it's a DD in the Gregson(first mvmt, right? I'll check for my own edification). I'll have to look at the Furies again, I don't have these worked up.

First C tuba I bought was a four valve Willson 4/4. All I could afford at the time. Got me into grad school at MSM, but I didn't play anything requiring the DDb on the audition. Sold it shortly before first year to buy a five valver. Buddy of mine had the MW 2165 prototype last year and that horn only had four valves. Great C tuba. Played another fabulous Alex earlier this year with only four valves. Four valve C tubas are out there and they can work. BTW, no DDbs on the Detroit list.

[eupher61]

actually, the Barat is properly UP an octave, so the lowest notes are just below the BC staff. Work on it.

[jtuba]

actually, the Barat is properly UP an octave, so the lowest notes are just below the BC staff. Work on it.

Thanks, I forgot about that. I've a student working the Southern Music arrangement, so that's the one fresh in my head.

[Biggs]

Thanks guys, keep naming them....show why we have to buy a 5th valve

What a complete load of bullshit. James, I will wager you a steak dinner that my "false" tone DDb played on my lowly four-valved tuba is superior to yours, despite your mighty fifth valve. I base this claim on the fact that I practice the note a la Wade and the fact that you have no recourse to dispute my ridiculous boast.

If anything, I would use a fifth valve for the Db an octave above the one you are referring to.

I think I have performed one DDb in my entire life, an optional note in the HS band staple Canterbury Chorale. There is no such DDb in the Gregson concerto, period.

As far as low notes go, there is an optional GGG in Claude T. Smith's band warhorse Eternal Father Strong to Save.

[k001k47]

I don't know about you guys... but I use my 1 valve DDDb tuba for orchestral work.

[jeopardymaster]

Does anyone out there have access to Britten's Sinfonia da Requiem? There is a section in that one that farts around some down there - not sure if it includes a DDb or not.

[joh_tuba]

The Britten is on my stand right now. I see low Es and Ds but no Db.

I'm not so convinced we *need* a fifth valve specifically to add a note. 99.9% of the playing we do is perfectly doable on a four valve horn. It's not about range.

A better argument, in my mind, could be made that the purpose of a fifth valve is to improve intonation in the low register.

But if it were just about being in tune wouldn't we all still be using the 2+3 miraphone fifth valve?

http://www.galvanizedjazz.com/tuba/5thvalve.html

Stirring the pot.

[MartyNeilan]

But if it were just about being in tune wouldn't we all still be using the 2+3 miraphone fifth valve?

Some of us still do...
RC
(who prefers the 2+3 on his Alex to the flat 1 on his MW)

When I got my Miraphfone F a couple of months ago and started figuring out the low register, I really wanted to use the 2-3 5th valve. But, there were about two notes on that horn that were either way too sharp or flat with any possible fingering, and I would have had to do some serious pulls. I found that the flat wholestep slide, pulled about 2.5 inches, gave me every note I needed almost spot on for that horn.
My fingerings (on F tuba):
C: 4 (centers reasonably well for a rotor F)
B: 235
Bb: 45 (or 124 push 1st all the way in)
A: 234
Ab: 1245
G: 2345
Gb: 12345
F: 0 (true pedal)
Interestingly enough, on my current 5 valve CC, I have to use slightly different combinations on comparable notes:
Eb: 345 (instead of 1245)
D: 1345 (push 1st all the way in)
Db: (12345 pull 1st out more than usual)
This could be because of (A) different intonation tendencies on the horn or (B) pulling the 5th valve out a couple of inches on the F picks up the difference.
EIther way, I can play down to the true pedal on either horn using the flat wholestep valve without any major intonation challenges.
BTW, I really wanted to give James the benefit of the doubt - I looked up the first movement of the Gregson where it goes low at the end, and I saw a low D (pedal D on an F or Eb tuba) but no low Db

[Rick Denney]

Interestingly enough, on my current 5 valve CC, I have to use slightly different combinations on comparable notes:

My two five-valved F tubas both have (ostensibly) flat whole-step fifth valves. But they use very different fingerings in the low register. I learned that nothing is as it seems down there, and the more options you have, the more likely something will work. I just wish it would work the same from one day to the next, heh, heh.

Rick "with a bad case of dead chops from summer conflicting activities" Denney

[sloan]

Interestingly enough, on my current 5 valve CC, I have to use slightly different combinations on comparable notes:

My two five-valved F tubas both have (ostensibly) flat whole-step fifth valves. But they use very different fingerings in the low register. I learned that nothing is as it seems down there, and the more options you have, the more likely something will work. I just wish it would work the same from one day to the next, heh, heh.

Rick "with a bad case of dead chops from summer conflicting activities" Denney

Go look at that graph again, Rick.

It ain't about length (necessarily). yeah, yeah...measuring the length works a lot of the time, but no one should be surprised when 2+2 does not equal 1.

*especially* down low and up high. Engineers are very, very good at pushing the bad stuff far away from the commonly used parts. The closer you get to the margins, the more likely you are to find that some designer has said "if he needs to play *this* note, he's good enough to find a way - he doesn't need *my* help".

Enjoy the challenge!

[Rick Denney]

Go look at that graph again, Rick.

Don't need to. I was making the same point. The actual pitches in the part of the instrument depend as much or more on the taper as on the length of the tubing, and the taper design has many calls to answer more important than a particular scale in the very low register. So, they fix any residual problems down there by adding an extra valve or two.

Rick "whose 621 F has two different 5th-valve slide configurations" Denney

[sloan]

Over the years, (admittedly) I've snickered at Dr. Young's famous King/Gronitz tuba...

...but my F tuba (in reality) has seven levers as well...and (just as Dr. Young claim(s)(ed), I never yank on slides.

- I have the (these days, I guess) "standard" set of 6 valves, and the (known as) "5th" valve has a thumb lever which kicks it out (extremely fast...virtually like a VALVE lever) to a totally different length.

OK Dr. Young...You're right...I ADMIT IT !!!

Well...do you ever push down 2 valves at the same time? If so, it's not quite the same thing.

Now...if I thought the answer to the first question was "yes" (I don't, but suppose I did), then the next question would be: but what do you do when you move up an octave (or two) or down an octave (or two) from home base? Are you sure Dr. Young's 7 valves would still be enough?