5th valve

[sailn2ba]

This is really interesting, but how the heck do you pull ALL the slides when you're playing a chart?

[Nick Pierce]

Trumpeters can play 'em [pedal tones] (can flugelers?) and french hornists use them as part of their operable range.

Strange, what I was told was that a trumpet cannot actually produce a pedal tone, one octave below their low C, while flugel horns can. I have also heard trumpet players who got to play flugel in a group comment on how ridiculously easy the pedals were to produce. Now, I have heard something that definitely sounds like a pedal produced by many trumpet players though, so perhaps I was misinformed. Would anyone like to enlighten me? Pretty please?

[J.c. Sherman]

Bells and mouthpieces....

Bells raise the pitch of the lower "harmonics" of the instrument; mouthpieces lower the pitch of higher ones. Together, they make a garden hose blow in tune...

On a trumpet, the taper of the bell doesn't work to lower the fundamental pitch to a "c". It's several semitones flat. So there is a "real" pedal tone, but it's useless, and it articulates extremely poorly. Moreover, the tone is gawdawful. “Pedal Tones” which trumpeters work on are actually forced falsetones.

Interesting sidebar; the lower the tone, the farther in the bell the last node is. Cheap Rexcraft or military bugles often have their second harmonic violently flat as well, since the taper ends too early. It's fine, since none of the bugle calls in my regiment book use that note either...

Flugelhorns are tubas (saxhorns, whatever), and as such have a continuous broad taper which raises the fundamental into a usable pitch. Further, the deeper cup mouthpiece makes it more facile to attack, tune and warm the sound down there.

As my friend used to say, "Viola!"

J.c.S.

[OldsRecording]

This might seem like a silly question, especially from a dillatante like me, but why would a 5th valve be any less useful on a BBb horn than a CC? I saw this on the Dillon's website and thought 'Hmmmmm... why not?'

9023717.jpg

Although I would think the old-style '2&3' 5th valve would be more used.

[Wyvern]

If playing in British style brass bands a lot of the BBb bass part is in the very low register. I am using my 4 valve Cerveny to play such parts and I would certainly at times appreciate a 5th valve.

A 5th valve may not be essential, but is a very useful luxury to have even on a BBb.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

...especially from a dillatante like me...

Did you mean "dilettante" or perhaps "debutante?"

Todd S. "who, with tongue in cheek, thinks spelling might count, in this case" Malicoate

[sailn2ba]

I think it's "dilettante" (sp!) . . . like me.
I'm an amateur trying to improve. . . and my mission has been to promote the tuba (uh, my tuba) as an instrument that people should enjoy listening to. When playing by myself, I try to do stuff that's melodic, smooth, and resonant. At the same time, my horn is capable of some really big low notes. . .folks hear that as different. . and, if those really low notes sound good, I feel that I've made a statement.
That low range drove my inquiry about 5th valves. I can anticipate the potential for alternate fingerings in higher registers (The 4th valve already helps!), BUT, I really would love to have an in-tune range below EEE (on a BBb) that I could play in public.

[djwesp]

BUT, I really would love to have an in-tune range below EEE (on a BBb) that I could play in public.

I genuinely believe that the best way to do this is to figure out fingerings that work (most require little or no pulling) and play stuff down there, GOOD STUFF.

The biggest advancements in my low register didn't come from adding valves, changing horns, but has came from the time I spend on the rochut. I play a rochut (usually the one corresponding to the day of the month) and I play it five different ways; i do this every day. Playing it an octave down (so the perfect range for most tuba stuff) as lyrical as i can, two octaves down (both loud and soft) taking all the bumps out, and in the trombone octave (loud and soft) with no articulation and breathing thru my nose (a caruso theif, I am). The dynamics are the point of almost breaking up, to almost no sound being made at all.

I am no professional, but I have tried to take advice from those I have been around that are. I devoted myself to this over the summer, under the advice and consultation of Pat Sheridan and Kevin Sanders (Memphis). It has improved my playing by leaps and bounds in a matter of months. It has helped me tune the extreme ranges of my horn/myself, and it has made them more comfortable.

Wes "not a professional. not a teacher. just striving to personally get better and knowing what has helped him" Pendergrass

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Wes is absolutely correct...to get fluent in the low-range language, one must spend time (a lot of time) learning it, and that means doing it!

I went through my entire undergraduate life always trying to play higher and faster. Always playing the high octave in band (because I was "first chair," of course I was going to play the "top" part ). I wasted a lot of time that I could have spent developing my low range.

One thing that did help it "click" for me...when I got to graduate school at KU, the other guys in the studio and I would play a little game we called "corner face." Basically, we pulled the corners of our mouths down as far as humanly possible (think a really deep frown) and made faces at one another like that. Sounds dumb, but it really works those muscles that you don't use very often and improves strength for low-register work.

I'll echo Wes' practice regiment...play lyrical exercise like Rochut down two octaves from the original trombone register. You may have to go very slow and breathe three times more often. That is fine, just make sure and emphasize making music. Dynamic shading is particularly hard in the lowest octave, and (because of the octave) must be super-exaggerated.

Good luck...you can do it! I am now a born-again "low note" guy. I can't get enough of the low register when playing in community band, and I spend about 60% of my practice time down there in the abyss. Have fun!

[OldsRecording]

...especially from a dillatante like me...

Did you mean "dilettante" or perhaps "debutante?"

Todd S. "who, with tongue in cheek, thinks spelling might count, in this case" Malicoate

Dillatante, dilettante, dill-a-tawnt, dill pickle, whatever. You did get my point, though?

[J.c. Sherman]

Two quickies...

1) I don't think one should ever breathe through ones nose for playing unless you're circular breathing. It simply is not the most efficient and quietest way to take in air. My teacher would strangle me, and I would strangle (actually, I DO) my students for breathing through the nose...

2) Sure, a 5th valve is always nice. But for me, a BBb doesn't really need it. For me, it is one more valve to blow through, and unneeded resistance. YMMV, but I wouldn't get one on purpose unless it was a used instrument I liked with one already on it.

Happy day!

J.c.S.

[pwhitaker]

I recently sold my brand new Mira 1291 5v BBb which was a very nice horn in favor of an older Rudy 5/4(!) BBb with 4 valves. The intonation with the 4th valve on the Rudy between the low E and Low C (with a big pull on the 1st valve) right above the pedal is as good as was the 5 valve Mira, and has less resistance. This horn is so big that the false tone low B sounds like a pedal.

I practice many tunes in that ultra low range - all the way down to the pedal sub-contra D which I can play with 1-4. The pedal sub-contra C sometimes is playable (on a good day with the wind at my back) using 2-3-4. This is with a 36 mm AA deep mpc.

My experience with the really big BBb's is that you don't need a 5th valve. Between slide pulls and the amount of play in the extreme low register these horns are easy to play in tune down there - and they really sound good. I generally finish my bit in St. James Infirmary Blues on that sub-contra pedal D and the crowd seems to like it.

[jeopardymaster]

To sniff or not to sniff? I was taught, and I have taught, to use the sniff as a tool to help with opening up the back of the oral cavity, and for facility in getting "snatch" breaths. That was Sam Green's doing, and I presumed he got it from Bill Bell. I internalized it pretty well, but have had mixed success turning students on to it. And I never made it anything like a requirement, chacun a son gout. There are plenty of second- to fourth- generation Bell disciples out there, I daresay most of us. Anyone else share this bit of pedagogical lore?

[Todd S. Malicoate]

I practice many tunes in that ultra low range - all the way down to the pedal sub-contra D which I can play with 1-4. The pedal sub-contra C sometimes is playable (on a good day with the wind at my back) using 2-3-4. This is with a 36 mm AA deep mpc.

This is one of those cases where it's unclear to me whether the poster means notes just above the fundamental or way below it.

I really wish we could standarize the use of the word "pedal"...but I think the same thing of "CC tuba."

pwhitaker, is this the note you call pedal sub-contra D???

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Very interesting. Kinda isometric, I imagine, which can stiffen up muscles at first, but still very interesting approach...

I wish I could take credit for the technique, but I will give that honor to Jarrod Williams of the US Naval Academy Band (who posts here occasionally). I think he approached me with the "corner face" the first day I met him at KU, accompanied by some low "MMM" sounds...very strange greeting.

Still, the "technique" worked for me. I still lower my corners when taking a breath to prepare for a low note.

[pwhitaker]

I practice many tunes in that ultra low range - all the way down to the pedal sub-contra D which I can play with 1-4. The pedal sub-contra C sometimes is playable (on a good day with the wind at my back) using 2-3-4. This is with a 36 mm AA deep mpc.

This is one of those cases where it's unclear to me whether the poster means notes just above the fundamental or way below it.

I really wish we could standarize the use of the word "pedal"...but I think the same thing of "CC tuba."

pwhitaker, is this the note you call pedal sub-contra D???

I'm talking about the pedal of that note - 3 more ledger lines and a space. It's the note one tone above the theoretical bottom note of my BBb - (pedal on 1-2-3-4 - which I have to get clearly.)

[sailn2ba]

I agree with tuben that there’s not enough energy in the fundamental down there to make up a significant fraction of what you hear. . . and a tubist can’t pump out the subsonic vibration that a powerful organ can. However, the overtone series that one does hear can carry the impression of the pitch and it certainly sounds like it’s in a lower octave.
I also agree with pwhitaker on “pedal” terminology. Pedals are the 1st harmonic of the tube, given the effects of taper and bell. It’s just that so many other harmonics are in the sound.
I guess I also stand corrected on the relative ease of producing pedals on the trumpet and flugelhorn. I was thinking it would be a function of cylindrical bore.

[Wyvern]

I do not think most humans can actually identify pitch by ear in that low register anyway - it is just a low rumble. I know when playing pieces in the low register, I have at times miscounted ledger lines, but conductors never notice my 'mispitch'

[Charlie Goodman]

To sniff or not to sniff? I was taught, and I have taught, to use the sniff as a tool to help with opening up the back of the oral cavity, and for facility in getting "snatch" breaths. That was Sam Green's doing, and I presumed he got it from Bill Bell. I internalized it pretty well, but have had mixed success turning students on to it. And I never made it anything like a requirement, chacun a son gout. There are plenty of second- to fourth- generation Bell disciples out there, I daresay most of us. Anyone else share this bit of pedagogical lore?

My teacher for my pre-college playing life also studied extensively with Mr. Bell, and advocated a sniff breath for those quick breaths in the middle of passages. I still use them occasionally.

[djwesp]

1) I don't think one should ever breathe through ones nose for playing unless you're circular breathing. It simply is not the most efficient and quietest way to take in air. My teacher would strangle me, and I would strangle (actually, I DO) my students for breathing through the nose...
J.c.S.

I am not advocating breathing thru the nose as a performance or breath facilitation practice. I am incorporating it as a part of my practice routine as a basis for embouchure development. It is used to keep the embouchure set in place, so there is not a change from range to range in placement. Also, so when the mouthpiece is to my face my embouchure is set. Not having my embouchure set when it is placed on the mouthpiece (prior to playing) is one of the biggest issues i have had to overcome in consistency. This plagues many tuba players. It gives them an unbalanced and crunched embouchure in the mouthpiece, because they put the mouthpiece to their face and then force their lips into it afterwards.

When practicing stuff for "range" I usually follow Carmine Caruso's "six rules of development". I do this because it works and I do this because of the focus on relaxation and the RESULTS i see.

1. Tap your foot during the entire exercise. Use a rigid up and down motion. "One muscle controls all other muscles"

2. Breathe in from the nose. To ensure the embouchure does not move. Breathing practice is done in all other facets of playing.

3. Keep the mouthpiece on the lips for the entire exercise/etude/study. The embouchure shall remain in position even during the bars of rest, only the pressure can and should be removed for blood flow.

4. The first note of each exercise is used with a breath attack.

5. Always before each exercise breath out entirely for two beats, then in entirely for two beats.

6. Keep the flow steady. Loud dynamics should still only be medium effort.



These are little points, but when followed I see results. They worked for Caruso's students for many years Trombone and Trumpet students still actively follow his teachings, and I like it because it works for me. Using the Caruso studies, rochut, and Caruso's six rules I feel better about my playing than I ever have.

Many of these concepts are not restricted to just Caruso. Reinhardt used them extensively (especially the static embouchure placement/breathing thru nose), definitely not to the extent of Caruso, but his range and spiderweb studies are done in similar fashion.



Wes "Not claiming to be a better tubist/musician/more educated than JC (because I'm probably not); but not sure if JC read his previous post entirely" pendergrass