A Comparison of BAT Wraps (horn dorn with observations)

[eupher61]

I wish I'd taken pictures in '89. I had the first prototype of the 2165 at TUSABTEC, showing it for MW/Getzen. OK, the first prototype to hit the US. But, I don't have enough hard memory of it at all to say much, except that it wasn't nearly the horn of the production models, much less the 2265. Actually, I think it was only 4 valves even. Very stuffy in the low range, nice upper range is all I can really remember. As to design characteristics, I have no clue any more. Why didn't I have my camera phone with me??

[cjk]

Maybe this thread should be moved to the main board since it's vaguely tooba related?

[bububassboner]

[/quote]
I've not had the opportunity to play one, but the (somewhat rare) Nirschl 6/4 is oft reported (by its owners) to be an interesting outing in keeping a large fast-moving vehicle between the ditches (intonation issues).
[/quote]

I really don't understand why the Nirschl gets so much flack for having "intonation issues" and for having a lot of "lemon" horns. I own a Nirschl and have played MANY other Nirschls and have NEVER played one with "intonation issues" and have NEVER played a "lemon" Nirschl. Not trying to sound rude but all the talk like this I have heard has been from people who "heard from someone else that the intonation was bad". YMMV, however every time I have played a horn with the word Nirschl on the bell it has been an amazing horn.

bubu "who has heard of a lemon Nirschl in California, but also heard it was a lemon because the owners spit/sweat ATE THE VALVES AWAY" bassboner

[k001k47]

Wade,

You must have BAT fever, or alot of extra cash to spend on tubas.

[k001k47]

Neither. This came to me, and I have NO extra cash. Sometimes circumstances provide you with excellent opportunities if you are willing to work for them a bit.

I will probably sell off one of these two tubas in a year after I have decided which one I like to use at work more.

Then I will pay off some freaking bills…

Either way, that's one nice Holton BAT.
Hope you enjoy it!

[MartyNeilan]

Do you have any pictures of a Martin 6/4?

Anyone have any...?

Here is a picture of my Martin after Lee Stofer fixed it up, before it was sold to a collector in Florida. This is one of those horns I really didn't need, but really wish I still had.

[Rick Denney]

They're big. I'm not sure how they compare to a Martin or a R.M. 6/4.

The R.M. 6/4 dwarfs the Holton in every way. When I get caught up on pictures, I'll post a photo of a Holton BAT next to an RM, and then you'll see. It will look like a Miraphone 186 next to a Holton 345, but with the roles reversed.

Rick "amazed by how easily the RM plays given it's enormity" Denney

[cjk]

...Not trying to sound rude but all the talk like this I have heard has been from people who "heard from someone else that the intonation was bad...

http://www.chisham.com/tips/bbs/feb2000 ... 24264.html

bloke "All you had to do was ask."

more here:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=22513&st=0&sk=t&sd= ... t&start=12" target="_blank" target="_blank

[cjk]

cjk,

It was MY fault; If there is *any*thing that is *more* "political" than Demo vs. Repub / Lib vs. Cons it is

>> discussing the specific shortcomings of specific models of tubas. <<

OK, can anybody tell me *why* that is? I am genuinely curious. If anybody has an idea, a PM is fine if you don't want to post it.

IMHO, if it is poor form to discuss the shortcomings of a particular model, then discussing a particular model *at all* is a pointless waste of time.


Christian, "perplexed"

[Rick Denney]

cjk,

It was MY fault; If there is *any*thing that is *more* "political" than Demo vs. Repub / Lib vs. Cons it is

>> discussing the specific shortcomings of specific models of tubas. <<

OK, can anybody tell me *why* that is? I am genuinely curious. If anybody has an idea, a PM is fine if you don't want to post it.

IMHO, if it is poor form to discuss the shortcomings of a particular model, then discussing a particular model *at all* is a pointless waste of time.


Christian, "perplexed"

The reasons are these:

1. Anyone who spent five figures on a tuba is usually proud of his choice and therefore happy to extol its virtues but unwilling to admit to flaws that others might mention.

2. Anyone who hasn't owned said instrument is deemed unworthy to judge.

Thus, the probability of a meaningful discussion that doesn't hurt anyone's feelings is pretty small. Note the comparison of the above two points with these two points:

1. People hold their political beliefs as an outgrowth of their world view, and thus are happy to discuss why they are right but unwilling to change them or admit to flaws that others might mention.

2. Anyone who disagrees with them politically must have the wrong world view and is therefore unworthy to judge.

Again, the probability of a meaningful discussion that doesn't hurt feelings or devolve into senseless name-calling is pretty small.

Rick "the explainer" Denney

[cjk]

cjk,

It was MY fault; If there is *any*thing that is *more* "political" than Demo vs. Repub / Lib vs. Cons it is

>> discussing the specific shortcomings of specific models of tubas. <<

OK, can anybody tell me *why* that is? I am genuinely curious. If anybody has an idea, a PM is fine if you don't want to post it.

IMHO, if it is poor form to discuss the shortcomings of a particular model, then discussing a particular model *at all* is a pointless waste of time.


Christian, "perplexed"

The reasons are these:

1. Anyone who spent five figures on a tuba is usually proud of his choice and therefore happy to extol its virtues but unwilling to admit to flaws that others might mention.

2. Anyone who hasn't owned said instrument is deemed unworthy to judge.

Thus, the probability of a meaningful discussion that doesn't hurt anyone's feelings is pretty small. Note the comparison of the above two points with these two points:

1. People hold their political beliefs as an outgrowth of their world view, and thus are happy to discuss why they are right but unwilling to change them or admit to flaws that others might mention.

2. Anyone who disagrees with them politically must have the wrong world view and is therefore unworthy to judge.

Again, the probability of a meaningful discussion that doesn't hurt feelings or devolve into senseless name-calling is pretty small.

Rick "the explainer" Denney

I do understand your argument, but from where I sit, I see it as comparing apples to oranges. Perhaps I'm naive or overly analytical or just missing the "big picture".

Political beliefs are fundamental differences in ways of thinking. They're wired in very tightly in a lot of people. I completely understand why the board owner doesn't want discussions of politics on the board. I honestly don't care to see those here either.

A tuba is a expensive tool. It's an inanimate object. It is not part of me or anybody else. If I am researching other expensive tools, I want to objectively review the pros and cons. I want to make sure I care to deal with the cons and ensure that the pros outweigh the cons. If all we do is discuss the pros, what good is that? I could get that from sales literature.

Let's say all RickBATs have a 6th partial F that is 25 cents sharp. Let's say all BlokeBATs have a fifth partial D that's 25 cents flat. Let's say those are facts. Are RickBAT and BlokeBAT owners really that sensitive that they take offense when those facts are mentioned?

Personally, If I were deciding which of those two models that I was going to spend my hard earned money to travel and test play, those facts would be very useful information.

Wade, I'm genuinely sorry I contributed to the cluttering of your thread and wish you the best of luck with your BATs.


All the best,

Christian, just trying to understand IBTL

[cjk]

Is this just because I declined to discuss an instrument of which there only exists two or possibly three (by now) on the frickin' planet? I *think* there are two in north America.

Nope.

[Rick Denney]

Let's say all RickBATs have a 6th partial F that is 25 cents sharp. Let's say all BlokeBATs have a fifth partial D that's 25 cents flat. Let's say those are facts. Are RickBAT and BlokeBAT owners really that sensitive that they take offense when those facts are mentioned?

I'll leave that to you to decide. But I do notice that when someone exposes the faults in very high-end instruments (some of which have risen to the ranks of mythical), those who "know better", including owners, friends of owners, students of owners, and admirers of owners, do seem to come to their defense as if it was an attack on their person. I would agree that this is neither necessary not completely rational. And that's what makes it similar to political discussions.

But I think you are making too much of Joe's joke about having ventured into "political" terrain. It seemed to me that he was actually making a satirical observation, that discussions about specific models seem to resemble political discussions in that they often devolve into hurt feelings and injured pride. But having made that observation, he was open to speak a little more TRVTH, at least from his perspective, which he did.

We have revered the CSO York and some of its copies to the point where any complaint about it or them is seen as an attack on their designers/owners/defenders. That's silly, of course. I played one of those early 2165's, and frankly I could not make a sound on it. I'm sure that was my own limitation--Lee Hipp didn't seem to have the same trouble when he auditioned (unsuccessfully as I recall) the same instrument with the SA Symphony. Another top pro summed it up well for that instrument: the York was described by Jacobs as making the most of what the player had to offer, while the 2165 was designed to make the most of what Warren Deck had to offer. Assuming my Holton is more like the York (a grand assumption, of course, and at least partly at odds with the development history of the 2165, which is, of course, the subject of this thread), I would say that I know what that means. Based on my own experiences playing them, some of the big tubas magnify, and some subdue. Those that subdue can be overcome, and perhaps with great success, but only by making great demands on the abilities of the performer. Those that magnify aren't as demanding, but also are reportedly not as flexible. With them, you have to relax and let the horn do the work, as one top pro described it to me. You get what you get with them.

Now, let me venture into very dangerous waters: It has been observed to me by at least one top pro that those instruments that have to be subdued seem to be associated with players who have had later troubles with such ailments as focal dystonia, perhaps because of the work required to play them well. That top pro did not mention any names at all, and left it as a general observation. I report that for what it's worth without personal knowledge. But the source was highly credible, though you'll have to take my word for that.

I like my Holton because it magnifies what I give it, with a result that never fails to give me a thrill. It's one of two tubas I own that I always thank myself for buying every time I blow a note on it (the other one is a Yamaha 621 F tuba). I've played some big tubas that did that, including one Yorkbrunner, a couple of 6450's, and a couple of Rusk-converted Yorks. (They may have had other weakness that I am not skilled enough to observe.) I have played many big tubas, including some with unassailable pedigrees (and from the same sources as above), that did not. Many of my play tests, though not all, by any means, were made in a big, relatively quiet room, and in direct comparison with my Holton.

Rick "thinking that what makes something political in the modern sense is how people respond to it" Denney

[Wyvern]

Sell both, and then you can buy a Neptune!

That sounds like what I would say

[eupher61]

Rick mentioned dystonia in relation to BATs.

I've often wondered about that. But, the one player afflicted by that miserable condition really didn't play a BAT all that much. He was more of a lyric and technique player, which is why he had the BAT he did, since it is not a chore to play. Or, at the time, WAS not a chore for me to play. He had no trouble either.

Focal Dystonia is evil. But, the question I have is ---- Are there as many big names of other brass instruments affected, as there are tubists? I don't even hear of euphoniumists. This is not a request to make names known on here, in fact PLEASE DON'T, unless you personally are victimized by FD and want to talk about it.

I asked a horn playing friend, who said she thought there were a few hornists, but no one really prominent and not that many that she knew of. It's scary.

[Cowgo]

The Conn loyalist 34J Ochestra Grand you pictured is likely a custom horn in a couple respects. The reported bore, .810, is larger than the usual .773 bore. The horn depicted also had modifications made to add a fifth valve that was not completed. Here's my early 34JConn Orchetra Grand:

[Nick Pierce]

Regarding BATs and FD...
-Constant embouchure stress from extended extreme loud playing. Of course...

I do think that some players are involved in activities while holding a BAT that DO cause FD.

Or perhaps instead of being the culprit, the BAT is in the wrong place at the wrong time? How often does one see "extended extreme soft playing" and pull out the BAT? And who wouldn't gleefully reach for the biggest horn they could reach when confronted with "extended extreme loud playing?"

If loud playing is a cause, then a BATs involvement is more or less coincidental.

[Wyvern]

How often does one see "extended extreme soft playing" and pull out the BAT?

In actual fact a BAT can be very effective for 'extended extreme soft playing' with the vibration as much felt as heard.

[Wyvern]

I reach for my SECOND biggest horn that has a big sound, but is set up such that I can easily put an edge on the sound. It has all the volume, but with more "heat".

A Thor?

[Wyvern]

It is a size of tone with a distinct color. It is not a weapon. Problem is that many here use them as such. We are butchering music when we make decisions in such a manner. If we cannot play high, low, loud and soft enough on a 4/4 contrabass we are not in need of an F or a BAT; we are in need of practice.

Very well put - could not agree more !

People on here often talking about 'getting the hand' if playing a BAT. If you get 'the hand' it is YOU and not the BAT at fault. A 6/4 tuba can be played as quietly as a smaller tuba if properly controlled. Blaming your tuba is like blaming your car if you get had for driving too fast!