cleaning trumpets

[andrew the tuba player]

I know this isn't about tubas. But it could apply. I was wondering what kind of acid and what mixture of acid/water do you use for chem cleaning. I know how but i need to know what type to use. one site said muratic acid. But that seemed a little strong to me. I have a cleaning job for a local band director and would like to do it right.

[eupher61]

for a trumpet? Muriatic isn't strong enough...

Seriously, dish liquid and lukewarm water, and a snake. Nothing more.

If the slides need extra cleaning, and/or the valves, some vinegar would be appropriate. White cider vinegar seems to work best for me, but brown will work too.

Don't use any "acid" unless you know what you're doing. And, I'd speculate that since you asked, you don't.

[andrew the tuba player]

vinegar will destroy lacquer. I've seen what it'll do to an old baritone. And, yeah, i do know what I'm doing. But, The post that had the matireals was from a long time ago and i didn't look at them real close. Only the procedure.

[iiipopes]

The commercial dunk tanks that do ultrasonic cleanings use a buffered form of phosphoric acid, so I've been told by a tech friend who works in a shop that does have one and showed me the gallon jug of mix that is diluted down to the specified strength in the tank.

But the key word here is "buffered," so it doesn't damage the finish.

At home, unless you're trying to get some really nasty gunk/green corrosion off the innards, stick with mild hand dish soap in water warm to not so hot you can't stick your hand in it soapy water, a good snake, and rinse, rinse, rinse, run the snake, run strips of cloth to get the remaining drops and at the crevices internally.

At least, that's what I did when I played trumpet decades ago.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Go to a pool supply place or the pool section of your farm/home store and get a container of muriatic acid (really, it's just diluted hydrochloric acid). Mix it 1:1 with water in one of those white 5 gallon buckets, and dip the trumpet. After the bubbling action has ceased (about 1 to 2 minutes), pour off the acid and rinse with clean water. To neutralize, soak for 18-24 hours in a solution of baking soda and water. Then use a thick-bristled brush to remove the orange baking soda residue. This is much easier on the lacquer than that awful vinegar which will destroy it. Good thing you pointed that out.

But, since you know what you are doing, why are you asking about this?

[andrew the tuba player]

I was asking about what kind of acid to use and what the ratio of acid/water was. I know the process. Thanks for the info.

[ASTuba]

vinegar will destroy lacquer. I've seen what it'll do to an old baritone. And, yeah, i do know what I'm doing. But, The post that had the matireals was from a long time ago and i didn't look at them real close. Only the procedure.

Hey,

Not trying to be a jerk, but if you know what you're doing, why did you ask about acid ratios? When I went to repair school, the first thing we learned when it came to brass cleaning was the ratio of acid to water for each different type of cleaner available. What background do you have in instrument repair?

I'm not trying to take shots at you, but if you're going to help a band director out, I want to make sure that you're not going to cause damage to his instrument, and therefore causing a bad relationship.

[andrew the tuba player]

ok. I have no back ground. I am a student trying to learn how to repair instruments. I have taken many dents out and clean many other horns. But, not with acid. I have a reputation with the local band directors for doing these things right. I have a few old valves sets off of trashed sousaphones that our school used to own to make sure what i am doing is right and will not hurt the horn. I'm just trying to learn how to do this. I knew the procedure. I knew how to do it. But, i forgot the ratio. This time I'll remember and write it down. I would appreciate it if people wouldn't take shots at me for trying to learn something new about one of the things i love doing.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Andrew,

It's all about presentation. People here are very willing to help if/when you ask for help.

You received excellent advice from Steve (eupher61) in the very first post. You chose to slap back. From then on, the floodgates of sarcasm opened.

Perhaps next time you'll word your first post something like this:

Hey, guys...I'm taking on a trumpet cleaning project for a local band director, and I want to do it right. I'm familiar with the procedure for chem cleaning, but I've don't know what kind of acid to get and what ratio to dilute it. Any advice from the experienced techs on here?

I suspect your answers would have been quite different if you'd started that way, and admitted early on that you don't really know what you're doing. You're still fudging on that...you keep saying you know how to do it but in the same paragraph say you have no background and are learning how to do this. Which is it?

[ASTuba]

ok. I have no back ground. I am a student trying to learn how to repair instruments. I have taken many dents out and clean many other horns. But, not with acid. I have a reputation with the local band directors for doing these things right. I have a few old valves sets off of trashed sousaphones that our school used to own to make sure what i am doing is right and will not hurt the horn. I'm just trying to learn how to do this. I knew the procedure. I knew how to do it. But, i forgot the ratio. This time I'll remember and write it down. I would appreciate it if people wouldn't take shots at me for trying to learn something new about one of the things i love doing.

Hey not trying to take a shot at you man. I just didn't know what you knew about repair. All I know is that when you start messing around with acid, you have to be careful because you can damage ANY instrument easily.

I can remember when I was in repair school that I had to clean a trumpet that was brought in by a customer. The trumpet was an older King, which I hadn't seen at that time (was in my first few months of training). First thing I did was put it in the ultrasonic cleaner like any other trumpet I had done before. Took it out 4 minutes later (as directions of unit from manufacturer said to do) and I had a beautifully cleaned trumpet that now had 90% of the lacquer taken off.

Long story short, even guys like Joe S., Lee, Dan, Daryl Hickman and other great repair technicians screw things up every once and awhile. I'm just trying to look out for you because unlike those techs, they know how to cover their a** when that sort of thing happens.

Please let me know if I can help you further, as I'm always wanting to help further anyone who is a novice repair guy get the education and training that they deserve.

[windshieldbug]

While I have everyone's attention, I took the transmission and torque converter out of my Dodge minivan...I just figured it was about time for a "rebuild". Could someone, please, talk me through reassembly?

Sure! With a Dodge minivan, cut a big circular glass tabletop, about 2' in diameter, put it on top of the transmission, and just put the rest of the minivan in the nearest recycling bin.

[andrew the tuba player]

AST tuba, I'm sorry if it seemed like a jumped back at you. I liked your post and approach. And, what i mean is i know what to do. I'm gonna test out anything i try on the old valve sets first to make sure there is no lacquer wear and that the valves and internals are fine. After i figure out what works best then i'll clean the trumpets. When i said i have no back ground, i meant no official training. I have back ground of helping restore instruments such as pianos mirambas (sp?) and flutes. As far as brass, I've cleaned undented, unstuck, unbent, and rebuilt many things and haven't had a complaint yet, which is why i received this job in the first place. I'm sorry if i came across wrong on any of this. And, i didn't mean to bite back on the vinegar thing. It's just that in my experieance vinegar is bad. in someone else's i dunno. I apologize for responding that way because it was wrong. And, yeah i know people mess up.I have and i know i will. I just want to further my knowlegde in repairing instruments. I'm sorry if i took any shots at anyone.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

That was really nice of you to say, Andrew, and appreciated. I will also apologize for my overuse of sarcasm in my first post...I hope you realize I was stretching the truth to make a point (don't dip the horn or anything else in a 1:1 muriatic/water mix!). I will reassert my thought that those who come here wishing to learn will receive good advice from caring, knowledgeable people.

My advice stands, though...acid is not something to fool with if you have no experience with it...especially with someone else's horns! Something else you need to consider is the potential harm to you...acid, even properly diluted, can be very dangerous. It can change into a breathable vapor quite easily and is extremely toxic.

Your situation reminds me of the guy who has changed filters and spark plugs on his truck so he figures he can rebuild the cylinder heads. Don't try a procedure like that on something you want to drive without some hands-on experience.

Whatever you decide to do, good luck and be careful. Why not try iiipopes' "home" method first and see how it goes?

[andrew the tuba player]

yeah, my dad used to help lay bricks and used muratic acid all the time. So, he knows about all the toxic vapors and things to look out for. I'll test the solution to make sure it works. Thanks for the advise

[eupher61]

Vinegar is strong enough to hurt lacquer?

Either really bad lacquer or really bad vinegar.

[willbrett]

Just thinking out-loud here, but I know I wouldn't even have my horn in the same room with any quantity of muriatic acid. I've used the stuff to etch CONCRETE prior to painting, and it can be pretty nasty.

I'd at least TRY a dish soap solution FIRST.

Starting out with a home mixed muriatic acid solution seems, to me anyway, like using a 12lb sledge hammer to put a thumb tack in a wall (instead of just giving it a shot with your thumb first)...

[Dean E]

While I have everyone's attention, I took the transmission and torque converter out of my Dodge minivan...I just figured it was about time for a "rebuild". Could someone, please, talk me through reassembly?

You order the pizza and beer and I'll talk you through it, Joe. Number one rule is to get a rebuilt torque converter. That's the only way to make sure that all the ground up bearings and cast iron filings are out of the system (unless you have a lathe to part open the welded seam, and welding and balancing equipment to reassemble the converter assembly after cleaning).