Strange tuba choices at Berlin Phil

[Wyvern]

Last Wednesday I went to the BBC Proms at the Royal Albert Hall to hear the Berlin Philharmonic play Shostokovich Symphony No.10. I was amazed to see the tubist come on stage carrying a small tuba which I presume was am F (I could not positively identify from a distance). A very strange choice for a big Russian 20th century symphony with lots of low register stuff. As I feared, the tuba sound was IMHO woefully inadequate - in tuttis the tuba might as well not have been there for its complete lack of presence.

Then yesterday evening there was a documentary on BBC TV about the Berlin Phil tour to Asia. On that tour they were playing Strauss Ein Heldenleben (which I thought was usually played in Germany on an F?). At no time was a close up of the tuba shown, but from long shots appeared to be a big Kaiser BBb and the tuba presence was excellent.

This is very strange. I remember reading that the Berlin Phil has separate F and BBb players. Is the tuba that is used on tour dictated by which tubist is on the tour rather than the repertoire? If anyone on this board knows, I would be interested.

[Highams]

Yes, I saw the repeat on BBC 4 last night and wondered about that.

CB

[The Deep End]

Watching that concert on TV the other night I must admit that I thought the same. The guy playing tuba was Paul Humpel who I thought had left the BPO ? He does also play BBb so I can't think why he had an F for that repertoire. Was he on their 1st prom ( Turangalila ) ? Maybe the newer tubist was on that concert ?

[jonesbrass]

Maybe the tubist didn't want to lug a big BBb on tour, or only wanted to bring one, and the one he uses most is an F.

[Tom Holtz]

I don't know if air travel sucks in Europe as hard as it sucks in the U.S., but it could have been an issue of the BBb in the case being too large or heavy (or both) to be accepted as checked baggage on whatever airline was being used. Yes, I too would expect a group like the BPO to be able to work out whatever arrangements would be necessary to get instruments to the venue. The airlines have the last say, however, and if you show up to the counter and the employee says, "That can't go on the plane," then you've got some fast, hard choices to make. I know it happens here in the states, and I wouldn't be surprised if it happens overseas.

[imperialbari]

When the Danish RSO toured the US some years ago the orchestra went from town to town by airplane, but the instruments went by truck.

At least in the Western continental Europe airmail and airfreight never see a plane. Trucks can do things faster with less red tape.

When a major orchestra like the BPO goes on tour none of the travel logistics is left for the musicians to deal with. Everything, especially about the transportation of instruments, is dealt with by the management. Logistics are much more centralized than seen around the everyday bus rides seen in some regional orchestras.

The apparently odd choice of tuba size either is the decision of player and maestro or there has been a last minute instrument failure.

Klaus

[cjk]

Doesn't Paul Humpel play a Gronitz double tuba (F and BBb?).

Maybe he and/or the music director thought that "one tuba" was enough for the job.

[Peach]

Yes, it was the small Gronitz double apparently with Berlin.
I didn't see it but that's the word! Can't comment on the sound output though...
Humpel was probably schooled in the older traditions which almost certainly featured smaller equipment/sounds.
Were the rest of the brass noticeably strong?
If so maybe you got a mix of older and newer traditions?
All this is speculation on my part...

I've a DVD box-set of Mahler symphonies with Vienna and Bernstein recorded in the 70's.
No big tubas in evidence at all. Nor big tuba sounds.
Presumably Viennese F?
What is the Bb tradition?

[Wyvern]

it was the small Gronitz double

Malcolm, Thanks for that info!

Were the rest of the brass noticeably strong?

Well, it was the horns that most impressed me - they were particularly strong and I never heard one split note

The trumpets and troms were not overly prominent, but certainly buried the tuba

[jeopardymaster]

Yeeecch. I'd complain.

[Wyvern]

Believe it or not, "loud=good" is not a universal maxim.

I am not saying it is! But IMHO the tuba should provide a good foundation for the brass which was not the case in this performance.

For blending with the trombones. They are cylindrical and the tuba in conical, so they are not designed to blend. If that was what Shostakovich had wanted, he would have scored with 4th trombone (or cimbasso).

[Tom Holtz]

For blending with the trombones. They are cylindrical and the tuba in conical, so they are not designed to blend.

This should be fun. Bookmarking page now...

[JB]

For blending with the trombones. They are cylindrical and the tuba in conical, so they are not designed to blend.

This should be fun. Bookmarking page now...

Jeez Tom, you beat me to it by seconds...

I thought it was a very nice REVERSE-pfft.


Crank up the popcorn maker and restock the beer fridge...

[Tom Holtz]

[Chuck Jackson]

Wow. This is remarkable. The guy plays in the Berlin Philharmonic. You don't. I mean really, he plays in the Berlin Philharmonic. Don't like it, buy a flipping recording. This is dumb.

Chuck"dumbfounded"Jackson

[pierso20]

Wow. This is remarkable. The guy plays in the Berlin Philharmonic. You don't. I mean really, he plays in the Berlin Philharmonic. Don't like it, buy a flipping recording. This is dumb.

Chuck"dumbfounded"Jackson

I don't think anyone is really commenting on the skill of the player. It's almost purely about the horn choice and "why"....for speculation...which for some is fun.

So, I don't think it's dumb. Just conversation, that's all.

[Nick Pierce]

-shrug-

Dang, look at that enormous....























bellybutton!

[jonesbrass]

resisting . . . urge . . . to . . .post . . . resisting . . .

Oh, crap. I guess I posted.

I like the different approaches and styles of the different orchestras. That's cool. I like it when the tuba really blends seemlessly with the other brasses providing a true brass bass sound. Of course, the american/british approach is pretty cool, too. Let's hear it for variety!!

[pierso20]

resisting . . . urge . . . to . . .post . . . resisting . . .

Oh, crap. I guess I posted.

I like the different approaches and styles of the different orchestras. That's cool. I like it when the tuba really blends seemlessly with the other brasses providing a true brass bass sound. Of course, the american/british approach is pretty cool, too. Let's hear it for variety!!

must.....resist....to.......

hows the little F?

haha........

I don't really care what Berlin does......because well.....they're all really really good....and I'm not.

[Wyvern]

The overall sound concept is a different one in Berlin ...
I want them to be Berlin. I hope others do as well. I know their sold out forever audiences back home do...

Fair enough Scooby! I would have been a little disappointed if a York-o-phone had been used (with BPO), but one would expect something like a Fafner, Rudy 5/4, or at least a M-W 25 BBb for this sort of music. If it had been Richard Strauss, or even say Mahler 6 one could say the choice of tuba was understandable as a "true to that concept" decision, but Shostakovich...