low C on the F tuba - tolerate heat or get out of kitchen

[MartyNeilan]

Here is something very similar I posted last year:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=22302

There is an exercise that Pat Landolfi (NJSO) taught me a long time ago to deal with problem notes. The audience doesn't care what valve you are pushing down, or how that note plays on your horn. Focus on making all the notes sound the same, without any change in timbre or volume. I have applied this exercise to many different notes on different horns, to ensure an even scale.

[JB]

Both exercises are very interesting and – in my humble opinion – should yield the desired results with steady and regular effort.

One other variation to apply to both:
play the first few bars (gently, not trying to “kill da wabbit”) on CC, then quickly switch to the F and play in its entirety. The idea is not to reproduce an identical sound to the CC, but rather to both “hear” precisely where the pitches are and to simply reproduce the same relaxed “feel” – in other words, to avoid doing anything “strange” or counterproductive (such as forcing)while trying to get the notes to speak easily and center precisely. (This “approach” came about as a result of a discussion with D Perantoni many years back when chatting about some undergrads’ first experiencing F tubas [rotary valve, German]. It seems to work.)

Similarly, take the same approach and play things such as Blazevich (#4, for example), Concone, Rochut, or other lyrical etudes that center in that area. Sometimes it may be more beneficial to isolate the portions of etudes that are in the “trouble area” and just spend time on those without bothering with the remainder of the etude. Once this region of the F range is increasingly familiar and more comfortable/reliable in execution, then start introducing more technical, articulated material into the routine.


It is simply very important to spend time playing in this range of the instrument regularly in practice sessions to overcome the "challenges" inherent in the instrument.

[eupher61]

or, put a dent next to the 5th valve!

[jimgray]

I have owned several german F tubas, loved the resonance, but could not quite get over the low range enough to be able to actually use the horn as a general purpose tuba; they always remained a specialty instrument for me because of playability issues in the low range (despite a LOT of hard work).

I am currently (after a number of years) re-immersing myself in classical playing, and am spending some time with excerpts and solos, preparing for sub list auditions, etc. I needed a decent high horn to partner with my rotary Neptune...

I would suggest a few options to consider for those who love the Germanic F sound (as I do) and can't quite stomach typical German F tendencies-

1) check out some of the recent large F tubas - many are alleged to have very workable low ranges. I am thinking of the Miraphone Firebird and MW Kodiak and 45-slz
2) consider a rotary Eb, like the MW 2040/5 or Miraphone Norwegian Star.

I went the rotary Eb route (MW 2040/5) despite having never even played an Eb, and I am very happy with it.
Very warm, rich, German sound.
Excellent "user interface" -> super playable.
Incredible low range.
Not oversized like a 6/4 F (which begins to beg the question of why you are playing a small tuba to begin with, IMO).
Delightful! A very solid option to consider-

Jim

[Matt G]

Is it really hard?

-Scales that focus on the range in question.

-Etudes that focus on the range in question.

-Approaching this range with the same adjustments one makes to the "low" register on contrabass.

If the academic conductors that students deal with have a problem with tuba experimentation, either join a lower ranking band at the school (my school had a spring band for the marching band kids who were non-majors for something fun to do), or join a local community band and play only the F tuba.

Bloke is right that the "feel" to these notes is very similar to the low F or G on contrabass, but many players begin an embouchure shift around this area to accommodate, whereas the C below the staff doesn't seem "low".

Ah, but what do I know. I haven't played in years.

[Wyvern]

I would suggest a few options to consider for those who love the Germanic F sound (as I do) and can't quite stomach typical German F tendencies...I went the rotary Eb route (MW 2040/5) despite having never even played an Eb, and I am very happy with it.
Very warm, rich, German sound.
Excellent "user interface" -> super playable.
Incredible low range.
Not oversized like a 6/4 F (which begins to beg the question of why you are playing a small tuba to begin with, IMO).
Delightful! A very solid option to consider

I would second everything Jim says about the 2040/5. It does provide a really good bass tuba option.

Pleased you are so enjoying your Eb Jim!

Jonathan "who just wishes the 2040/5 has a nice name to call it rather than that mouthful of numbers"

[Wyvern]

I was quite surprised that my favorite of the bunch was the (little publicized/rarely mentioned) Rudy Meinl.

How did you find its intonation?

[imperialbari]

Hi Granddaddy bloke, your memory must be fading, if the listing of your Eb experiences should be the benchmark.

During the time we have frequented the same fora, which is rather exactly 9 years, you have told of owning 3 more Eb basses, of which at least one was in use as a money-collector on street jobs. I attach a long outdated eBay presentation of that instrument, which represents some very fine craftsmanship especially around the bell attachment rings.

That Eb-flatter was preceded by a 4 piston King sousaphone (which I never saw). Very briefly you also had a Conn 26K, which you wrote about in this forum. That one is with me now.

Klaus

[Nick Pierce]

I just noticed something: when we talk about Eb's we talk compensating and non-compensating, with the compensating being more sought after. Based on my (very very) limited understanding of how the compensating system works, compensating horns are designed specifically to avoid intonation and other problems in the low register.

I have never heard of a compensating F tuba. Is there a reason for this, or could that be the source of the problem?

[imperialbari]

I just noticed something: when we talk about Eb's we talk compensating and non-compensating, with the compensating being more sought after. Based on my (very very) limited understanding of how the compensating system works, compensating horns are designed specifically to avoid intonation and other problems in the low register.

I have never heard of a compensating F tuba. Is there a reason for this, or could that be the source of the problem?

Read the right threads:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=27038&p=234165

Just played my larger 4 valve Eb non-comper, now will play my Eb 3+1 comper, then my F 3+1 comper, then my smaller Eb 3+1 non-comper. The sequence determined by the decreasing size of the mouthpieces (PT-50 for the two first ones, DW4 and DW5 for the last ones). The original market for compers, the UK, had a limited demand for F tubas and the original holder of the patent, Boosey, may have acted too slowly by not making comping F's until 1923. Howard Johnson's sample as well mine are both out of the short series made that year.

When I got my sample in late July I started wondering why there was never made more than two short runs of this model. It is not a perfect instrument, but the issues often reported on in rotary F tubas are non-existant in this tuba.

Klaus

[Wyvern]

Well, my M-W 2040/5 has excellent intonation.

I have tried a Rudy Eb and liked its tone, but have heard their intonation can be suspect which is why I asked the question.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Is the Yamaha YFB-821 really that uncharacteristic of an F tuba sound? It sure has a nice low range, including the dreaded low C.

Caveat: The only "German" sounding F tuba I have played on was a POS B&S university-owned instrument at the University of Kansas. Joe, did you buy that one before you left?

[DonShirer]

F tuba players, please forgive me, for I have never had the opportunity to try one. However I have played on (or owned) several Eb tubas with quite different tonal qualities and have never had any trouble producing a good low Bb. These instruments are similar in pitch and use. Is the bore expansion rate in an F so much different that it produces the low C problem? (I'm asking because I'm curious, not trying to knock or boost either type.)

[eupher61]

I have never heard of a compensating F tuba. Is there a reason for this, or could that be the source of the problem?

The Besson 3+1 compensator is terrific, at least the 4 or 5 I've played. That's the instrument the VW was premiered on, according to
Mr Catlinet himself. Willson makes one, don't they??

The problem is not so much intonation as stuffiness.

[greatk82]

Wow! Alec Baldwin is talented!

[eupher61]

The first B&S F that I ever saw was on the KU campus, but it was owned by the touring Leipzig
Gewandhaus Orchestra. They played in that huge hall on campus (name escapes me). That old man
actually "got by" playing Tchaik 6 with that thing. I was impressed.

Gewandhaus came back a couple years later in KC (btw, Hoch Auditorium was destroyed by fire about
10 years ago...is that right, Todd?)
Not an old guy, I actually talked with him backstage, between my Hogan's Heroes German and his almost
as little English, and my friend who had 1 year of German in HS, we exchanged that I had a Piggy, he
played a B&S F, and he had a B&S BBb which he rarely used for anything. They played Tchaik 4 and, for an encore, Meistersinger.
No problems on the Tchaik, and Meistersinger absolutely rocked. Not overbearing, but wonderful.

Kurt Masur had offered to do a rehearsal with the UMKC orchestra that Saturday...because it would have been an extra day, the orchestra VOTED to reject the offer. can you believe the idiocy? None of the brass did, but everyone else was almost unanimous.

[imperialbari]

Regarding the age of the Gewandhaus tubist you both easily could be right. That orchestra is huge, as it shall be able to man the symphony stage, the opera/ballet pit, and the Thomaner Kirche (Bach’s church with orchestra backed choir performances) at the same time. Like the BPO and the Bavarian state opera this orchestra has two tubists on tenure.

Klaus

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Hoch Auditorium was destroyed by fire about
10 years ago...is that right, Todd?

Mostly destroyed, I think. It was hit by lighting before I got there (early 90s, I think) but rebuilt. Fortunately for me, I very rarely had to "climb the hill" to Jayhawk Boulevard while I was going to school there. Everything I had was in Murphy Hall.

[Donn]

F tuba players, please forgive me, for I have never had the opportunity to try one. However I have played on (or owned) several Eb tubas with quite different tonal qualities and have never had any trouble producing a good low Bb. These instruments are similar in pitch and use. Is the bore expansion rate in an F so much different that it produces the low C problem? (I'm asking because I'm curious, not trying to knock or boost either type.)

F tubas exist which have a better reputation for low notes, as alluded to in the initial post -

Those of us who own these F tubas with the "unforgiving" low C can either learn to play them, or we can sell them and buy another type of F tuba. Obviously, there is a great allure associated with many of the "German" F tubas. That attractant is RESONANCE. It seems that many of the F tubas that *DO* offer an "easy" low C tend to either be a bit on the "grunty" side or a bit on the "hollow" side.

So maybe there's an F tuba out there that has it all - low end, but not a large bore honker. I guess Eb tubas are less ambivalent about the choice and simply tend towards that hollow, grunty sound that the non-German F tubas are known for (Yamaha, Willson?), which no doubt blends better with the trombones anyway!

PS - oops, turned a technique thread into an equipment thread, didn't we!

[sloan]

Consider spending - without fail - 30 minutes a day on this. Come back to this thread on October 10th, and report as to whether the "low C" on your F tuba is easier to play.

I considered it - and then remembered the advice this bloke guy gave about never doing anything unless I was paid for it.

so...consider paying me my hourly rate for 30 minutes each day from now until 10 October, and I'll think about it some more.