low C on the F tuba - tolerate heat or get out of kitchen

[MikeMason]

In general response to smartaxxes like Bloke,I suggest we learn to read the real meaning behind people's questions on tubenet.What is really meant is "without any serious extra practice time,how can i fix/improve _______ by buying a new horn,mouthpiece,or gadget."This is not intended as a slap at the OP in anyway.I am the poster boy for this way of thinking myself.But let's not kid ourselves,this is really what these questions are asking.When I submitted the low C question a while back,I got a few very helpful answers,started trying a couple,and was having some success.The one thing I still use is a new fingering(125) but none of the exercise or practice suggestions.If something comes down the pike that requires me to play low C on my f in front of other people,I'll dust off some of these posts and get to work.Long live the Tubenet archives

[sloan]

Consider spending - without fail - 30 minutes a day on this. Come back to this thread on October 10th, and report as to whether the "low C" on your F tuba is easier to play.

I considered it - and then remembered the advice this bloke guy gave about never doing anything unless I was paid for it.

so...consider paying me my hourly rate for 30 minutes each day from now until 10 October, and I'll think about it some more.

When I see that you actually own an F tuba, I'll throw in my 2¢/hr.

btw, bit-by-bit (over the last few days) I've become an expert in your field, and have offered to work for UAB for 1/2 your wages. They've accepted my offer and plan to dismiss you. Once this occurs, would you be willing to drop by over the next couple of years for a few hrs./day and lend a hand?

For independent consulting, my rate includes door-to-door transportation and you supply all equipment. I'll be happy to travel daily to your wooded estate (is your lake large enough to land a helicopter?) and abuse your best F-tuba. Where do I send the invoice? I require one semester's payment in advance. No personal checks.

You wouldn't like my job, even at half pay - you'd have to deal with *students* - but feel free to get me dismissed. The Alabama Teacher's retirement fund owns every building taller than 10 stories East of Mississippi and I believe I get a raise when I retire (plus better health benefits).

Oh yeah...if you ever figure out what "(my) field" is, please let me know - I've been trying to determine that for 40 years now, and don't seem to be making much progress.

[ken k]

back to the topic at hand...

you can also buzz that low C on the mouthpiece alone for a few seconds everyday. You could buzz some of that little excercise bloke wrote out into a tuner too to make sure you are hearing the pitches also. This will help the focus of the chops on that pesky note.

My Boosey & Hawkes Eb has a 4th valve F (the one right below the staff) that, if I am not careful, can get fuzzy. Years ago when I first got the horn I spent some time buzzing that darn note on the mouhpiece alone (with a tuner) and that seemed to help me clear it up pretty well. I also discovered that I had the fourth valve tuning slide out too far, so i was fighting the horn to play it in tune. Not an issue anymore really.

k

[eupher61]

As a shortcut to the half hour a day thing, or maybe as a supplement...


Play nothing but F for a while. Concert band, orchestra, quintet, whatever you play in. Play NOTHING but F. Your low range will come about quickly. There's no reason to be afraid of the F tuba. It may take some 'splainin to a conductor, but there can be no complaints if you're doing it for valid reasons. Most conductors won't notice anyway.

The tale of "the dent" has been told too often, but the other thing that has happened through the years is I've played F probably 95% of the time since 1986. After the denting, the low range was instantly better, but I still remember the feeling, and I know it's nearly 180 degrees from that now. The last two weekends I've played German a total of 18 hours, all on F, from wind band style charts. I sometimes have the 1st part, sometimes the 2nd part, but I switch octaves regularly and work on higher range things as well as lower. I'm no Pokorny, but I'll put my F low range against almost anyone but Gene.

Funny, though, the pedal Bb (the fundamental of the BBb tuba) speaks better for me on F than on BBb, but my Weril has a better 4th-leger-below F than the fundamental on my F. Weird, but to me it feels true.

[MaryAnn]

I was hoping that Genius Rick would tune in on the dent story with some node-anti-node theory, but he didn't. Oh well...

MA

[imperialbari]

Øyvind Baadsvik on his site reports on the development of the Norwegian Star, maybe rather the Star Light. Both of these are in Eb, but the point goes for F tubas as well.

ØB complained the intonation of one certain note. The developing engineer found the relevant nodal point and measured the bore diameter, which for one reason or another was wrong. The bore was altered for the better and the problem was solved.

The modern computer designing methods have made it easier to construct prototypes, but not all players are impressed with the sound of instruments having had the problems of the overtone system tweaked out of them.

Many brass instruments, if not all of them, have certain notes with very narrow slots or slots placed a bit higher or lower than desired. It takes practising to obtain a reliable handling of these notes.

Woodwind instruments have the same problems. One colleague told his saxophone students that this note and that note were difficult to hit. The result was that he scared the students to miss these notes very regularly. My approach was to ask for more attention on certain notes in form of always having a very precise inner ear pre-hearing of these notes. My approach proved itself being the better pedagogical tool. bloke’s exercise is the practical application of the same approach. Some posters hint the exercise being boring and time consuming. It shouldn’t become boring until the low C pops out correctly every time it is wanted. The whole process can be speeded up by exact ear usage.

Another poster in another context hinted that the low C slots way high on some rotor F tubas. My reply to that would be to pull the 4th slide accordingly, and to find the most efficient compromise on slide position, as the G a fifth higher also shall be playable. With a long whole step in the 5th valve the low C maybe even works better if fingered 3+5.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[pierso20]

back to the topic at hand...

you can also buzz that low C on the mouthpiece alone for a few seconds everyday. You could buzz some of that little excercise bloke wrote out into a tuner too to make sure you are hearing the pitches also. This will help the focus of the chops on that pesky note.

My Boosey & Hawkes Eb has a 4th valve F (the one right below the staff) that, if I am not careful, can get fuzzy. Years ago when I first got the horn I spent some time buzzing that darn note on the mouhpiece alone (with a tuner) and that seemed to help me clear it up pretty well. I also discovered that I had the fourth valve tuning slide out too far, so i was fighting the horn to play it in tune. Not an issue anymore really.

k

It depends what the issue with the C on the particular horn is. (some is mostly intonation, some are just aweful to make a noise on and others are just a little squirrelly).

The biggest problem people have with these F's and the C is a mental one. You can't play the low C on an F horn the same way you'd approach it on a CC. So buzzing may or may not actually help. However, just playing that C on the F and changing the way you think about it can have tremendous results ( and of course using some good technique...you know.....playing the tuba good... )

[Mark]

My professor does not see why I complain about the low notes being stuffier sometimes. He says it always sounds the same and the tone is as nice as the upper register.

Maybe our perfect recording we have in our head is getting in the way

Yes! I know I've posted this a couple of times. If you think your low C doesn't sound right, record yourself and see how the recording sounds. For some F tubas, the low C sounds bad to the player but not to the listener.

[MartyNeilan]

My professor does not see why I complain

Enough said...

[tubeast]

On MY F-tuba, that particular range seems to have particularly wide "slots" (errrm... canions ?). Same thing with the horns my students (errrm... tuba learning kids) use.

Why do we start kids on F in the first place ? Well... these tend to receive less dents when used by 9 through 11 year olds...

Anyways, beginning with Eb right below the staff, all beginning F-tubists I have met (including myself, many years ago) have been WAY too sharp. To my students, I´m making a point of demonstrating those notes being bendable by a major third, at least.
Those slots being wide or narrow, the problem remains the same: either You´ll have to hit the "slot" exactly, or find the correct pitch among the great variety the horn will support.

[imperialbari]

Why do we start kids on F in the first place ? Well... these tend to receive less dents when used by 9 through 11 year olds...

Not to derail the thread, but which brands and models of F tubas do you buy for your young students? How many valves do you prefer for these beginners?

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[djwesp]

I must be the only person that just doesn't get the whole...

"the low c is so hard"
"the low c is difficult to make speak"
"i had to work to get a consistent low c"


Personally, I have a much harder time keeping the pitch of the D down, to the point of generally playing it 3... A VERY big time getting the Bb and F# below said C to speak with consistency (or at least a sound like the rest of my range)... A HUGE difficulty getting the g above middle C to be in tune either open or 1st valve.


These things follow me around on all F tubas. The low C is there, when I listen to players the low C is usually pretty consistent thing too.


Wes...thinking it must be a feel thing for quite a few people...

[eupher61]

In addition to what I posted above to help get used to the funky range on F, try this...

work on "The Ride" on it. Really. Lots of work.

It takes LOTS of air, lots of pitch placement, lots of finger coordination. It can be done.

Would I do it in performance or audition? Nope, unless I was in my current situation of "F is all I have".

But it's a great exercise in low F tuba playing.

[Wyvern]

What was your overall impression of it?

Bob, as you know, I am just selling my 182 (heading for its new home today). Mine is a great little player with nice tone and solid low register. Although no F tuba player, I did not experience too much trouble with the fabled low C.

I am only selling mine because 'for me' my 2040/5 is MUCH better.

Jonathan "who is more of an Eb and CC player"

[Rick Denney]

I was hoping that Genius Rick would tune in on the dent story with some node-anti-node theory, but he didn't. Oh well...

MA

I have no explanation. I would, however, be happy to study the matter in some detail. But Steve would have to provide me with the object of study. I think I could come to a conclusion in, oh, three or four years.

Rick "not willing to apply said dent to his own B&S without that study" Denney

[Rick Denney]

I have owned three F tubas over the years, two of which I still own.

The first was a Musica with four valves. I don't really know who actually made it. It was not that small--probably about the size of a 180 with a 15 or 16" bell and about a .710 bore.

Below the staff, it got oinky and stuffy in a hurry, and the low register was utterly unresonant. The upper register, though, was not bad. Like the better of Wade's former 180's, it was a good starter F.

Then, I got the Yamaha 621. That is a solid producer of correct notes for me, then as now. My own tone issues have been limiting enough so that the reported blandness of the instrument was never an issue for me. It was and is the only tuba in my collection that made enough money to pay for itself (without having to be sold, that is). It is not for sale.

I absolutely agree with Wade that the sound, clarity, and focus of the 621 improved tremendously when I (finally) switched to a shallow bowl-shaped mouthpiece. In fact, I use the same mouthpiece on my B&S.

The B&S Symphonie was the F tuba that taught the F tuba world how to be big. We think of the old Symphonie as a small F, but really that's just silly. It has the same outer branches (for the most part) as any of the current B&S models. It fits without too much room left over in the gig bag I use for my Miraphone 186. The only difference I can tell between it and a PT-10 is that the first and fifth valves on the older model are a bit smaller, resulting in four different bores in the instrument instead of just three. Personally, I think the instrument plays better than the newer models, but I know that not all share that opinion.

It's about the same vintage as Bloke's 6-valve F tuba, and yes the fifth valve is operated by the left thumb.

I bought it because the Yamaha didn't have enough projection to be heard in a large ensemble. The band I'm in plays a lot of transcriptions, and at the time we had a player in the other chair who was much better than me. For stuff like Berlioz transcriptions, I would play the F to get a little of the authentic Berlioz tuba sound in the mix, while the other player provided the string-bass component. The Yamaha could not get out, but the B&S's much better projection does the job.

The low C on the B&S requires much more finesse than the same note on the Yamaha. And the intonation of the B&S is generally less controlled below the staff, and it requires more attention to get the pitches right. I often play the low C 3-5, and the low Bb 1-2-4, while the Yamaha centers those pitches with 4 and 4-5. But the fifth valve on the old B&S is a bit too short to be a true flat whole-step fifth, which is really the same length as the first valve on a C tuba.

Every bit of the practice I have put into the low C on the Symphonie has improved my sound on the Yamaha.

Rick "who finds that F tubas do not respond to be pushed, but rather prefer to be fed" Denney

[MaryAnn]

Another poster in another context hinted that the low C slots way high on some rotor F tubas. My reply to that would be to pull the 4th slide accordingly, and to find the most efficient compromise on slide position, as the G a fifth higher also shall be playable. With a long whole step in the 5th valve the low C maybe even works better if fingered 3+5.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

3+5 is exactly what I use on my 182, and while it doesn't "cure" the note, it does make it reasonably manageable even by me.

MA

[sloan]

Every bit of the practice I have put into the low C on the Symphonie has improved my sound on the Yamaha.

The most important line in Rick's latest opus. Tubas "with good sound" often produce *acceptable* sound with little effort - but are capable of much better sound if only the player works at it and hits the note just so. Tubas "with problem notes" produce acceptable sound if the player works at it and hits the note just so - and complete garbage if they don't.

I have an antique, pea-shooter, Eb helicon that is now mostly played at TubaChristmas by my son the trombone player. I've found that 1 hour wrestling with this beast improves my sound on my King BBb much, much, more than practicing for 2 hours on the King. It's too easy to accept a not-quite-perfect sound on a tuba with good sound and narrow slots. On the Eb helicon, my son's take (he's a much better player than I am) is "whatever you put in at the mouthpiece comes out the bell" - for better, or worse.

[eupher61]

Let's see....I need to study a 345 for a while, Rick.

Since MA is a skeptic, I'll say it again...
Seriously, when I sent Bob Tucci a picture years ago (maybe the early 90s, via snail mail), he said, at first glance without doing any real intense Denny-esque study, that the dent appears to be in a location that would knock the wave around a bit. Admittedly, that isn't hard evidence of anything, but he certainly knows the design of the instrument and probably has/had charts (with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one) or something of the nodes and antinodes. Even though it was essentially an anecdotal response, I'm sticking with it.

All I know is it happened instantly.

[Tubaing]

Admittedly, that isn't hard evidence of anything, but he certainly knows the design of the instrument and probably has/had charts (with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one)

Is it really that time of year again Officer Obie?