2 step 5th valve

[ArnoldGottlieb]

I just (finally) bought a spare tuba so I don't drag my PT20P to every gig and also to have a horn I can leave someplace. It only took about three years for me to find one I liked enough. Anyway, the horn has a 2 step 5th valve and I was wondering if anyone would chime in with what they use this valve for. So far I'm play my low F's 235 and tuning the valve for the Eb's to be dead on is nice. The other thing is this valve is so comfortable to play I think I'll really want to explore it. Thanks. Peace. ASG

[tubacdk]

Speaking of which, can anybody come up with a solid non-pedagogical explanation as to why I shouldn't use 3 for 1 & 2 and 5 for 2 & 3?

well, practically speaking, I think the two step 5th was designed to be higher than a 2&3 fingering, as the one step was supposed to be lower than a 1st valve fingering. When I played CC tubas in the past with long 5th valves, I tuned them so that I could play Db below the staff 125, because 24 was always a bit high for me. It usually worked out that Gb and F below that would also be in tune fingered 125 and 235, respectively. I think that tuning it so that you can play the Eb just 5th valve eliminates other possibilities, such as the notes I just mentioned, and other things in the low register. But, it depends on how you want to set up your horn. Every horn is going to have different pitch tendencies, so I think your best bet is to use the conventional fingerings so long as they work, and when you need to make adjustments, try and make them as simple as possible.

One thing that should be mentioned is that most tubas sound best with as few valves pushed down as possible, so that could be a real argument for the 5th valve Eb. I actually finger my low Eb on my big CC 1&5 (with a 1-step 5th) simply because 2&3 is extremely sharp on that tuba. Fortunately the pitch is so good on every other note on that tuba that it works out fine. So, just go for what is practical. In general, try to make things as simple as possible for yourself. For me, that would be to not use the 5th valve for low Eb. ymmv.

-ck

[ArnoldGottlieb]

mandrake wrote:

Speaking of which, can anybody come up with a solid non-pedagogical explanation as to why I shouldn't use 3 for 1 & 2 and 5 for 2 & 3?

I appreciate the answers. My (unamed) teacher insisted I use 3 for 1+2. I'll be experimenting on sunday, after my gig.

[Art Hovey]

Before the conventional fourth valve evolved, two-step fourth valves were not unusual. I think the idea was to use single valves for half-step, whole-step, minor third, and major thirds.
Eventually we learned that a fourth valve tuned to a perfect fourth was pretty useful, and some tubas apparently were made with fourth and fifth valves tuned to perfect fourth and to a major third. At one time this was called the "Mirafone system", although it goes back way before that company was in business.
For more information than you will ever want to see about this topic, visit this website: http://galvanizedjazz.com/tuba.html

As for using the third valve instead of 1&2, your tuner will give you the reason. On some tubas 1&2 is quite sharp on some notes. In those cases, using the 3rd valve often solves the problem because the third valve tubing is usually a bit longer than 1 & 2 together.

[MaryAnn]

Ah ... another fifth-valve question. For a while, I played my tuba with the two-tone slide in the fifth valve. My teacher suggested I switch back to the more conventional one-tone slide. I don't like it, but will keep it there because he probably knows what he's talking about more than I do.

While I had my two-tone slide as a fifth valve, I used it mostly to replace any note that would otherwise require 2 & 3. I also used 3 to replace any note that would otherwise require 1 & 2. In this way, most of my range was accessible with only one valve (because 4 substitutes 1 & 3) which I liked. Teacher said "I don't think that's a good idea ... perhaps it would work better for you, and later if you still feel like switching, you can do that, but for now it would probably be best if you use the conventional fingering".

The result? Now I use the conventional fingering, and have for about a month. Do I intend to switch back? Some day, yes. It sounds like you want to be adventerous, so you may take a look at this.

Speaking of which, can anybody come up with a solid non-pedagogical explanation as to why I shouldn't use 3 for 1 & 2 and 5 for 2 & 3?

Well, personally I would do exactly what you do. I would love to try a two step 5th valve, precisely for having one-valve in-tune notes. I have both my horn and tuba set up so that 3rd is in tune by itself for 1.5 step notes, and use 1-2 for the flat E in the staff on my C tuba. I use 4th valve for all 1-3 combos, too. I can play the scale from low C to C in the staff using just one-valve notes.

Of course when you get in that octave above the pedals, it is useful to have a flat whole step 5th valve, which I have and use on my F tuba. But my CC has a major 3rd 5th valve and that works too; I tune it to be a little long and use it in combinations.

While you're in school you have to do what your teacher says (up to a point) but later you can do what works best for you. Knowing conventional fingerings won't hurt you any.

MA

[Rick Denney]

Speaking of which, can anybody come up with a solid non-pedagogical explanation as to why I shouldn't use 3 for 1 & 2 and 5 for 2 & 3?

I'm not a pedagog so no fear of my comments being pedagogical. I intend to support your view. When watching Roland Szentpali play a couple of years ago at the army conference, I saw him consistently use the third valve in lieu of 1 and 2. I mentioned it at the time, and our European correspondents told me that this was conventional practice there.

Personally, I think the effectiveness of any approach is measured by the results. Is there a specific weakness in your playing that your teacher is trying to correct? That would be my question to him were I in your shoes. But I probably annoy my teachers with such questions, given that I'm not nearly advanced enough to make use of their answers.

Rick "who thinks that if it works, it's right" Denney

[Chuck(G)]

mandrake wrote:

Speaking of which, can anybody come up with a solid non-pedagogical explanation as to why I shouldn't use 3 for 1 & 2 and 5 for 2 & 3?

In my 1962 copy of the Ujfalusi-Perl-Perlaki Hungarian "Tubaiskola" book for F-tuba, the use of 12 as an alternate for 3 is never mentioned.; i.e., 3 is the preferred fingering.

As as aside, are there any method books for F-tuba in English?

[winston]

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[MartyNeilan]

A lot of it depends on the particular horn. Older "American" style tubas seem to have a longer third valve than "German" style tubas. On Mirafones, MW's, and Cervenys that I have played the 3rd valve is often a necessary alternate for 1-2. However, on most "American" tubas the third valve is too flat to ever be used by itself.