Playing with alot of pressure on F

[MartyNeilan]

Bad deal.
A lot of GOOD trumpet players use virtually no pressure. There is an exercise where they hang a trumpet from the ceiling on a set of strings, walk up to it, and blow a high C.
Use as little pressure as possible just to keep air from leaking out around your lips. Any more, and you are using too much.

Longterm, you will have dental issues and be cutting off the blood flow to your chops. Bad things can happen then. I used to play in a bigband with a screech trumpet player who was a high pressure player. One day he knocked his front teeth out. True story. He developed a new pressure free embourchure, can play higher than Maynard, and now makes big money teaching other lead trumpet players including Phil Driscol.

Pressure is not a substitute for practicing high range exercises and developing chops. Jay Zorn wrote a book called "Exploring the Trumpet's Upper Register." Ignore the bologna in the back, and just practice the exercises using trumpet fingerings (read C-G-C as open, etc.) on both your CC and F tuba. OR, you could just spend lots of time doing scales and lip slurs in the upper register, gradually working your way up frm the middle register, while not increasing the pressure at all.

[k001k47]

If you aren't running into any problems with timbre and endurance, I'd say keep playing that way...
so long as it's not causing you to cut off circulation to your lips and making them go numb.


When I catch myself putting excess pressure, I tend to lose alot of endurance.

Just my (not so informative as future posts will be) two cents.

[jonesbrass]

It's not necessarily the mouthpiece. You should only be using enough pressure and tension as is required for the note to speak. In other words, relax. Hear the note and allow it to speak, don't force it to speak.

[eupher61]

A sharp rim can cause problems if too much pressure is used. You're already finding that out, James, so you had your answer before you wrote...

I've found sharp rims to be great for forcing me to get pitch placement spot on. I use a Conn Helleburg from time to time to get that specific help. But, it plays hell with my chops. It also makes slurs a lot more difficult, which can be good for practice.

But it hurts. Not good.

[MartyNeilan]

One thing, James.
(And if you have noticed, I have really made every effort to be nice to you )
STOP TAKING THE LATE ARNOLD JACOBS OUT OF CONTEXT!!!!!!!!
I doubt you ever took a single lesson from him.
He would NEVER want you to keep doing something that hurts. You are so hung up on the "play by sound, not by feel" thing that you are completely ignoring everything else he ever said, including his extensive study of human anatomy. He spent a great deal of time helping players with damaged chops regain their playing ability. Much of that is undocumented, because Joe Principal Player does not want word getting out they can't play anymore.

I never studied under The Man, but most of my teachers did. I will defer to Brian F. or others who may further wish to elaborate on this.

[TubaRay]

It has nothing to do with the rims. It has everything to do with YOU. Who cares about the rims? Use less pressure if it hurts. Very simple.

Wade. Wade. Wade. Don't you know there is always an equipment solution to any problem. You need to get caught up to modern times. Things that are wrong are never the result of something that a person is doing wrong. They are always due to an equipment problem. Why do you think we have so many mouthpiece choices these days? Get yourself up-to-date. Come on, man. Pull yourself together.

Aside to James(who I know cannot read this, anyway):

This post was not an attempt to put you down or be mean to you. Its purpose was simply to get Wade straightened out.

[imperialbari]

Its purpose was simply to get Wade straightened out.

Please don't do that! That will make him occupy several square miles.

K

[imperialbari]

Now, Klaus, how do you feel about this little graphic?

306622_155_avatar.png

I think the text is right!

And let it be distributed in other alphabets also.

I have strong opinions on this topic. The most tuba relevant aspect thereof is that I think that our volunteer bands within our equivalent of your National Guard should play Western music in general, and Danish national music more specifically, at Sunday concerts rotating between certain ghettos.

Klaus

[brianf]

A mouthpiece rim is used to isolate thevibrations of the lip, you do not need to apply much pressure to accomplish this. If you apply to much pressure, problems happen, the worse being a cut off of blood getting to the lips - a disaster! Excess pressure on the lips accomplishes nothing except inflict pain. When that starts hapenning, the body is trying to tell you something - Don't do it!

As far as playing by sound, not feel, I agree with Marty, you are taking Mr Jacobs' words out of context. Your body is telling you it does not like the excess pressure you are putting against the lips, do not ignore this - the body is telling you to reduce pressure. Since you are asking for advice over the net, there could be other factors (another story) but Mr Jacobs would probably tell you like everyone else is - reduce pressure!

[Chris Smith]

Tubashaman you are wrong. You aren't listening to the posts made above and you aren't going to listen to this one. Do whatever you want to do to make yourself a better player because no one here is going to tell you what you want to hear because that is different from the truth.

[TubaRay]

Tubashaman you are wrong. You aren't listening to the posts made above and you aren't going to listen to this one. Do whatever you want to do to make yourself a better player because no one here is going to tell you what you want to hear because that is different from the truth.

Truth contained above. Please read.

[Rick Denney]

Now, when I play with the CC mouthpiece on F, it does not feel as sharp.

Now tell me if I am wrong: arent the rims (inner and outer) on the Baer MMVI CC and the bare MMVI F supposed to be the same?

I knew a guy who showed up at a gig having forgotten his mouthpiece. He cut the top off a soda bottle, taped it to a section of hose or something he found in his trunk, taped that to the receiver, and played the gig. Note that his lips were pressing against the recently cut edge of plastic that's about half a millimeter thick. With any pressure at all, 1.) he'd be bleeding, and 2.) the tape would never have held.

He said the sound was a little out there but that nobody out front was likely to have noticed.

In the context of that story, how irrelevant does asking about comparatively subtle variations on mouthpiece rims sound to you? Those rim differences affect comfort and some subtle aspects of playing such as flexibility. But I think people who use too much pressure should use a sharp rim so that the pain will tell them not to. (I include myself in that category, by the way.)

You are not allowed to compare rims until neither of them hurt or leave marks. Then, you can compare rims.

Rick "it ain't the mouthpiece" Denney

[pierso20]

I didn't want to write a whole new post just for this question...BUT......(sorry James to take a bit away from this...wonderful....conversation......everyone is having)

All things involving pain set aside....

Does a ring around your lips after playing equal too much pressure? Assuming that my "face" doesn't hurt after playing, but I still have that ring.

I mean, I'm in the boat that says "if it doesn't hurt, then it's probably ok". But I'd figure I'd throw out this question too.

[THE TUBA]

I deal with pressure on F the same way I deal with pressure in any situation: take deep breaths and imagine the audience is in their underwear. (Just hope your professor isn't sitting in the front row)



Oh, wait-the other type of pressure.

[Rick Denney]

I mean, I'm in the boat that says "if it doesn't hurt, then it's probably ok". But I'd figure I'd throw out this question too.

Especially when playing F tuba in the upper register, I have always had a problem of using too much pressure. It's a crutch to overcome the weakness of my chops.

So, if you are using pressure to overcome embouchure, then it's too much pressure, whether it hurts or not, or whether it leaves a ring or not. The mouthpiece rim seals air and provides muscle isolation. Once the air sealed, more pressure is unnecessary. You should be able to buzz all the pitches on the mouthpiece holding it to your face lightly with two fingers. I can't do that reliably, but then I'm a lazy amateur who doesn't practice enough.

Rick "back to fundamentals" Denney

[jb2ba]

Hey everyone

Heres another suggestion that nobody has seemed to mention. Try buzzing in your high range using your F mpc, do some excercises like in the back of the Hal Leonard book (compiled by AJ). You can mess around with them... take them up and down octaves.. nothing wrong with that. Also do long tones and then try to control pitches up there. BUT do so holding it just with your thumb and pointer... or a light grip. Not a grubby fist cramming the thing into your face. WIth range issues I find that students will inevitably have success on their horn when doing this.

PEACE!

JB




PS. Also make sure that you're using a fast airstream.... but I think folks know that... just in case some middle schooler is reading this I suppose.

[hugechunkofmetal]

I think the important factor is you stated that you just started playing F tuba. I had a similar issue when i switched from Eb-->F tuba. Just keep practicing away, i think the issue should resolve itself, it's just a matter of your body getting used to the different way of playing. Should only take a short while before you become comfortable.

Some of the previous suggestions i.e. buzzing will certainly help!

All the best.

[Chen]

Mostly good posts in this thread. The guy needs a practical solution. Sooner or later he's going to change the way he plays to adjust to the mouthpiece. Bad. The mouthpiece should suit the player. And with all due respect, just because the mouthpiece says Baer on it doesn't mean it's best for you and your tuba. I think the mouthpiece is too big. See if your instructor has a PT-65 (or PT-64) and try it. There is a reason why these are popular among F players.

[jonesbrass]

I was talking "high range issues" over with my wife recently, and we agreed that the secret to great high range is the same as to have a great low range: air flow and relaxation. "Pushing" "forcing" "muscleing" either end of your range is counterproductive. If you think the note is too high, it is. If you think the note isn't too high, it probably isn't. Most of the problem is in the player's head, and the solution is in the practice room. Are you playing the horn, or is the horn playing you?

[eupher61]

Well, in the last 40 hours I've had the horn on my face for most of 11 of them, plus working an extra long day at my day job Friday. Playing nothing but F, I've done and orchestra (show tunes, a couple of marches, only one TACET piece, Slavonic Dance #8), a ragtime concert, and 2 German shows, which are obviously face time intensive. While my chops were tired last night, there was no pain. No line from the rim. A little bit of swelling maybe, but some ice and a little stretching/free buzzing takes care of that.
===========
James, you need to figure out whether it's you using too much pressure on a suitable mouthpiece, or if the mouthpiece is encouraging you to use pressure. Whichever, it's not good. You can easily do damage to the muscles (they ain't exactly hamstrings), and you're by all means not allowing your chops to work to their maximum efficiency.

One more thing to try: Reconfigure the horn so you have more equal pressure points on both lips. If you're bending your neck down to look at the leadpipe to reach the mouthpiece, that may be part of the problem. Bring the mouthpiece to you.