Poll: Hard case clothes stuffing...

[Dylan King]

Hello fellow tubists.

I will be traveling for the first time with my Yamaha 621 F tuba from Charlotte to Phoenix a week from now, and have concluded that checking it in the Yamaha factory hard case is my best hope for a safe arrival. I'm a bit troubled about the airline (Air-Tran), and the stopover in Atlanta, but those things are out of my control. Perhaps I can get a bit of advise from some of you.

I've read about stuffing the horn with clothing in order to make it more secure (i.e. snug) inside the case. I understand why this may be a good thing, but the horn fits quite well in the first place, and I wonder if the added weight of the clothing may increase the chances for damage, especially to the integrity of the case itself. It seems to me that the added weight will contribute to a harder impact upon being dropped. It's pretty light in the case all alone, and perhaps that lighter weight might "bounce" and "give" a little better if the horn gets thrown around.

I'm guessing that it is best to push all of the slides all-the-way in. If anyone thinks otherwise, please let me know why.

What about securing the case in the event the latches fail? I'm thinking about rigging it with bun-jee or some sort of belt. Any suggestions?

Has anyone had trouble packing valve oil in their checked luggage? How about packing mouthpieces in your carry-on pack?

Is it true that the TSA will check the horn while we watch? If so, how long has this added to the wait at security? Has anyone experienced anything unusual when dealing with TSA that they would like to share?

Finally, for those who have checked their Yamaha tubas with the factory case, what results have you encountered in flying? Horror stories and/or happy endings are welcome.

I do plan on insuring the instrument through Clarion before I fly, but I'm playing a solo for 500 brethren on the first day of the Feast of Tabernacles, and would like the horn to arrive in AZ ready to go. If nothing else, those of you who believe in the true God of the Bible, please pray for my success.

Thank you all in advance,

Dylan King

[The Jackson]

About two years ago, I went on a school wind ensemble trip to one of the Heritage Festival events. On the trip (via JetBlue) from Miami, FL to Washington D.C., I checked the Yamaha YBB-641 tuba I was using at the time on the plane inside it's stock Yamaha hard case. The horn was pretty beat up beforehand (dents, braces broken, etc.), but upon arrival and when we got back to Miami, I noticed no additional damage to the horn or the case. I believe we did strap up the case with masking tape just to make sure it wouldn't open up. I also believe my teacher has flown with his Yamaha YCB-661 in its hard case and had no trouble.

It's not much, but I hope it helps some! Best wishes in whatever course you choose!


-Jackson

[Dean E]

Keep the total weight down, and stuff the bell with lots of rolled-up bubble wrap (or a soccer ball wrapped in bubble wrap). TSA will open the case and may not properly close it or refasten any straps. Don't make their job more difficult. Make sure that the horn is well insured by your own policy or a rider to your homeowner/renter policy. Do a shipping cost comparison. It may be better to use Amtrak or Greyhound.

[Dylan King]

Thank you Bloke. Almost always eh? Those odds aren't much better than how many times in their history the Cubs have gone home without a World Series win.

I have a bunch of acoustic foam from my old studio in Los Angeles that I'm thinking about using inside the bell and as additional stuffing around the instrument. Do you think there might be a way to reinforce the outside bell section of the case by perhaps gluing something rubbery onto the outside?

This is a once a year travel event for me, and I don't plan on traveling again until next fall. Even if the case is badly damaged, if the horn comes through OK, I'll be satisfied.

None of this, I hope...

[Dylan King]

That's encouraging information. Good news. I will be sure to post results when I get back.

[paco1013]

Last year I travelled from Louisville to Washington DC via New Jersey with my Mirafone F-181in a gig bag and a hard case and my case and my buddy Remus' Yamaha Euphonium case both sustained damage but neither of our horns did.

I also travelled from Louisville directly to Denver. Other than losing some valve oil and a mouthpiece (which I'm not sure how it happened because it was in the gig bag that was in the case, but you never get a straight answer from the airlines) nothing major went awry.

[Dylan King]

If my case comes out looking like a rag doll, and my horn is unscathed, I'll be happy as pumpkin pie on the Fourth of July.

[tubatooter1940]

I sent my tuba to Seattle in two boxes by U.P.S. ground a week before we flew out there. I removed the valve springs from my old King and taped the valves down. I taped beer cousies around the valve section and the lead pipe. I taped my valve oil to the tuba. I shipped the recording bell in a separate box with a softly inflated Wilson basketball in the bell opening and wrapped both parts with lots-o-bubble wrap in huge boxes packed tight with foam peanuts. U.P.S charged our Parrothead hosts $235 including packaging.
Tuba and boxes got there with no new damage.
We shipped it back Fedex ground for $202. The tuba got back a day sooner than U.P.S. but the bell box was crushed with no new damage to the bell.

[adam0408]

Its really a crap shoot based mostly (I think) on the mood of the baggage handlers.

I have not flown that much with my tuba, but on a band trip in undergrad my (the school's case and horn, thankfully) case got pretty badly torn up and another tuba on the trip got some bell damage. On a previous trip to brazil, a school horn had gotten a really bad bell crease.

I would carry the horn on in a gig bag or ship it if I were you. Buy a seat for it if you must. Having flown as little as I have (probably 3 times with a tuba, one of those times with the tuba sitting next to me) and having the experience of damage once makes the odds way too high for me to trust my tuba to checked luggage unless I find it absolutely necessary.

From my experience, you can watch the TSA people fiddle with your stuff as much as you want. Usually this involves wiping with a special bomb-detecting cloth and not much else. Bring duct tape and ask if you can tape over the latches so they don't come springing open after the TSA people inspect it. However, I suspect much of the damage sustained by instruments comes after the inspection, but it still can't hurt to watch them closely.

Oh, I forgot to add- when the horns got damaged they were stuffed with clothes, so I doubt it makes much of a difference.

[Dylan King]

*UPDATE*

Air-Tran let me check the tuba at the gate both ways, which I had in the original case with no added padding. Absolutely no damage to the horn. The case got a few scratches.



My wife bought me a Navajo six-holed flute in Sedona, AZ that I'm fascinated with.

[Rick Denney]

*UPDATE*

Air-Tran let me check the tuba at the gate both ways, which I had in the original case with no added padding. Absolutely no damage to the horn. The case got a few scratches.



My wife bought me a Navajo six-holed flute in Sedona, AZ that I'm fascinated with.

I didn't respond first time around--must have missed the thread. But I flew on Southwest once upon a time with my 621 in the factory case, from Dallas to San Antonio and back. There was no damage to either the instrument or the case. That doesn't mean I expect such happy results consistently.

I bought a Lakota flute in Torrey, Utah (on Thousand Lake Mountain north of the Escalante). They had many Navajo cedar flutes, but this one was in another class. It is fun to play with. All the music is transposed, since the available notes are pretty much the same on all of these. Cheap fun.

Rick "who avoids flying with a tuba" Denney

[pgiampi1]

Someone mentioned checking the tuba at the gate. I am a euphonium player, and while my usual plan is to bring my horn on the plane in a small Reunion Blues bag and put it in the overhead, more than half the time there has not been room for it and it has had to go underneath the plane. From what I've found, this seems to be a relatively safe way to do it. Someone mentioned to me once that they use metal racks for stuff that they check right before the plane departs, but of course, this may be exclusive to one airline or possibly not even true.

The one time I had any damage to my euphonium when flying was when a bonehead baggage handler tried to pull some bags down from the platform on the ramp while he was on the ground, and my horn tumbled off. THIS WAS MY OWN FAULT for not personally handing the horn to someone or having it marked fragile, because when I have done this, nothing bad has happened, as nervous as I've been.

I hate that anxiety of flying with the horn, but I just can't imagine putting so much money towards a flight case. When I moved to Texas, I left my hard Willson case at my parents home in Connecticut because there was no room for it. Rather than have it shipped here to use it for my flight home over the holidays, I am thinking that I might instead pack my horn into my Soundwear gig bag with some extra padding and check it underneath the plane, making sure to personally hand it to someone who will walk it down to ground level. I HATE flying with horns because it can be so tricky, and am almost considering just taking 2 weeks off instead of bring it with me...but then again, I don't know if I could handle that either

What would you choose to do?

[rocksanddirt]

I would not recommend checking if it is in a gig bag.

The potential for damage, even when handing it to them is just to high.

[Rick Denney]

Rather than have it shipped here to use it for my flight home over the holidays, I am thinking that I might instead pack my horn into my Soundwear gig bag with some extra padding and check it underneath the plane, making sure to personally hand it to someone who will walk it down to ground level.

If you "check it", it will go through the airport's baggage handling system, and I'll bet that's where most damage occurs.

If you attempt to bring it aboard, and it doesn't fit, then the flight attendant will hand it to a ramp agent who will hand it to a luggage loader who will put it in the hold. If it looks fragile, they'll usually treat it as such. But on the other end, they might still send it through the baggage handling system at the destination. That has happened to me with my Yamaha 621.

More and more, the plane on which you have a ticket will be a regional jet where luggage that size must be put in the hold. Those guys do not take good care of the carry-ons that they handle. They toss them onto a conveyor, and I've seen on several occasions where the bags on the other end fell off into a pile because the gorilla in charge of unloading it got behind.

If you do use a hard case, use one that looks less strong than it is. If it looks strong (like an Anvil case), the gorillas will pile stuff on it and assume it can take anything. I knew more than one professional triathlete who put their $5000 race bike in a clear plastic bag and checked it. It looked so fragile compared to reality that they never had damage. My secret desire if I had to fly a lot would be a case as protective as a good flight case, but that is disguised to look like a soft gig bag.

I have to fly a lot for work, but work for me doesn't involve the tuba.

Rick "whose tools of his trade are a laptop computer, a calculator, a pile of paper, and a red pencil" Denney

[sloan]

I flew my YBB-621 BHM->ATL->SEA->ATL->BHM in the original molded-plastic case. It arrived in Seattle with cracks in the outer shell, but no missing pieces. The inner parts of the case (and the tuba itself) were completely unscathed. The cracks were in the bell flare, on the side opposite the valve stems (this is the LARGER flare - the other side is smaller and less exposed). I think that flare needs a "NO STEP" bumper sticker.

A trip to Office Max produced a roll of "Gorilla Tape". More-or-less careful application of many strips of tape repaired all of the damage (and served as an advertisement that the case was "Fragile").

At the end of the road (back in Birmingham), there was zero damage to the case. Even the tape looks pristine.

I'm contemplating an attempt to effect a better repair - "expansive urethane" and "fiberglass resin" have both been suggested to me. But those might require a trip to Home Depot and actual time and effort on my part. I suppose I could practice on my newspaper re-cycling basket (which has many similar cracks in it). Advice and instructions welcome...

Oh yes, while examining the damage, I noticed that the skid pads surrounding the built-in wheels were seriously cracked, with a couple of missing pieces of plastic. I don't know if that damage came from this trip, or not (I doubt it). In any event, careful reconstruction with Gorrilla Tape seems to have been successful. These wheels are not that great anyway (you must PUSH the case, you can't PULL it), so when (not if) they fall off I'll probably "upgrade" to an external wheels kit.

Gail Robertson was rolling a similar-sized case (for a euph!) to which she had applied "the rubberized stuff you dip your tools in". But, that was very well worn. She also has "FRAGILE" stenciled on the side of the case. Judging from the case, I'd say that the sign doesn't help.

The main concessions that I made to "extra effort" in protecting the case were to:

a) reversing the springs to hold the (front action) valve stems down. They are protected ONLY by a bulge in the shell and a pocket of air. Pushing the valves down into the casing means that the case would have to be pushed in nearly 4 inches before hitting the valves. If you look at this case, note that the bell is also floating in air. For that reason, I rejected the standard wisdom to stuff a half-inflated soccer ball in the bell. This case securely grabs onto the top and bottom bow and NOTHING touches the bell. I thought it best to go along with that strategy.

b) wrapping a Samsonite(TM) luggage strap around the case (threaded through the handle) - to keep the case mostly closed in case the latches popped.

c) asking to lock the case after TSA inspection (so that the latches could not pop). This case has typical "music case" latches and locks - alas, there is no place to apply a "TSA lock". Departing from BHM, you deliver all checked luggage directly to TSA. They said "lock it now, and wait while it goes through the machine so you can unlock it if we want to look inside". So, I did, they didn't, and I was on my way. Departing from Seattle (on Delta), most bags go immediately behind the counter - but I was directed "around the corner" to the "oversize baggage" counter (staffed, I think, by TSA). They didn't seem to have a scanner there, but they did a "swab and sniff" test and declared it good to go.
[note - the (very small) YBB-621 case is "oversize" for normal luggage, but NOT for a "musical instrument" (for which there are specific special rules).]

d) showing up RealEarly for the flight. So early on the way out that I changed my flight to one an hour earlier. They called down and re-booked the tuba as well (rule: you must travel with your luggage - unless the airline loses it). This gave me time to eat breakfast during the connection - and may have made the connection easier for the tuba, as well.

I considered trying to wheel the case through security and check it at the gate - but that seemed like too much trouble for not enough extra protection (if any).

I'm not sure how easy things would be if I were to try to check my (new) King 2341 in its monstrous MTS case. It *looks* strong enough to protect the tuba, but I haven't measured it to see if there would be a problem with the airline (it might be oversize, even for a "musical instrument"). I also haven't weighed it - but I think you get up to 100lb for a "musical instrument" (as opposed to 50lb for normal checked bags). The Yamaha is only 30lb, case and all - so surely the King+MTS is well under 100lb.

Any experience flying the MTS cases?

On the way back, I met a fiddle player from the Seattle Symphony who was on the same redeye from Seattle to Atlanta. He had his fiddle in a carry-on-sized case. Of course, his bow cost more than all of my tubas put together.

Next week I'm flying the same tuba BHM->ATL->DCA->ATL->BHM. Come to the open reading session to inspect the damage. [Rick - I don't *think* I'll need a loaner, but....well...cross your fingers] The Yamaha is now my official "flying tuba".

[jmerring]

This subject makes me long for a simpler time (1984 - Houston-Seattle) on Southwest. The band I was with had only me as their tubist and I was very worried about the horn in checked baggage. Not only did they let me load it into the belly of the beast in Houston, but at Seattle and back to Houston, I was taken to the plane to directly unload it. I am still amazed that a time like that even existed!

[Nick Pierce]

On two separate occasions last year, once to Arizona and once to Washington D.C., I flew my high schools Cerveny (notorious dent/damage magnets) in the hard case it came with. On both occasions, the thin and flimsy medal emerged from the plane completely and unbelievably unscathed.

Side note; a friend of mine brought his bass trombone on the D.C. flight with what he claimed was a golf club case (modified to accommodate the various parts) that looked like it was designed to survive nuclear war. That thing was almost as bulky and inconvenient ast the tubas.

[Rick Denney]

I'm contemplating an attempt to effect a better repair - "expansive urethane" and "fiberglass resin" have both been suggested to me. But those might require a trip to Home Depot and actual time and effort on my part. I suppose I could practice on my newspaper re-cycling basket (which has many similar cracks in it). Advice and instructions welcome...

I've owed you an email for a while, and this brought it back to my mind.

Before knowing how to repair the case, you need to figure out what kind of plastic it is. My guess would be rigid PVC. If that's the case, then PVC pipe adhesive (which is a solvent adhesive) and some pieces of PVC will make a strong repair. But if it's polypropylene or polyethylene or ABS, then that solvent glue won't be a solvent and it won't work. ABS can also be repaired with solvent glue. Solvent glues create what is in effect a weld, and that's the preferred approach if the case is made from the correct plastic.

Polypropylene and polyethylene cannot be dissolved by any substance you can buy, and they are both waxy plastics that prevent good adhesion. The only way to make a really good repair is by using heat welding. That can be done with a good-size soldering iron and some similar plastic as a filler material, but you'll have to be careful not to ruin the inner materials.

A patch that is epoxied and then riveted in place would be second-best to welding by solvent or heat. But even epoxy won't stick to polyethylene very well.

Fiberglass resin is usually polyester. It's the wrong stuff and it won't stick--don't do it. If the plastic is not waxy, epoxy might stick to it well enough and then the fiberglass matting will help reinforce the patch. I'd probably prefer a solid piece of plastic as an overlay patch, though.

Repairing plastic isn't that hard if you know what kind of plastic it is, but if you don't, any given repair method might not work.

If you do patch over the cracks, drill a 1/4" hole at the end of each crack to prevent the crack from growing.

Rick "strong, pretty: pick one" Denney

[anor09]

I wish I could change my answer from 100% no damage.

My orchestra just got back from our tour of Italy/Switzerland, one that for me did not start out on a good note. I landed in Rome in a good mood, until I saw my horn from across the room and could already see the damage to my case. I'm not exactly sure when it happened, but I believe in transfer to the flight to Rome in Atlanta, the case was dropped several feet bell-up . The problem had nothing to do with my packing the bell with a big blanket, or filling any extra space with (at the time, clean) clothes; the problem ended up being that TSA opened my case and decided to leave the internal strap surrounding my horn very loose, giving it room to bounce around and put two large creases at the top of the bell. I really wish I had been able to watch them open it and yell at them when they tried to close it without tightening the strap back up, but being with a large group, we didn't have time to wait for me.

In Rome, yelling at the woman at the counter who didn't speak a word of English didn't help my frustration either. That's where tour-guides fluent in Italian come in handy. Anyway, they tried to tell me they could only pay for external damage to the case, that no damage to the horn itself was their fault.

Moral of the story is, avoid flying through big airports like JFK or Atlanta, buy your tuba a seat on the plane, and make sure you have access to a "chill-pill".

[Norm Pearson]

The problem had nothing to do with my packing the bell with a big blanket, or filling any extra space with (at the time, clean) clothes

I'm sorry to inform you but the cloths and blankets packed with your tuba may have contributed to the damage. While the material is soft it will do nothing to absorb shock and may actually transfer some of the shock to the instrument. The only thing I add to my hard case is a partially inflated beach ball in the bell (or a ball of bubble wrap) and a layer of bubble wrap around the tuba. Then I stuff as much bubble wrap as I can around the tuba then I make sure the TSA folks close the case before I leave for the gate.

My tubas have sustained damage when I laid them in the cases unprotected or when I packed clothing around them ( I did that once 30 years ago and sustained major damage). I have never had damage done to my tubas when I have packed them properly. There is no guarantee but if you use shock absorbing materials when packing your tuba you will increase the odds that it will arrive at the destination without damage.

Norm Pearson